The Invasion Game (Q&A Session with General Knot)

[Neop]

Todd McCloud - Today at 10:00 PM
@everyone another lecture is beginning!
Seasoned raider General Knot is going to present his topic, entitled "The Invasion Game." This is mainly a guided lecture to be held on the server, so everyone will go into this with a pure mind, or so we think.
At any rate, I now yield the floor to @General Knot
General Knot - Today at 10:07 PM
Lovely, thanks very much @Todd McCloud. I finished about half of my lecture on "The Invasion Game" and then I realized that it was too long, too wordy, too much propaganda, etc. I figured it would be much more productive for us to have a discussion on R/D, and have y'all ask me any questions about anything R/D related. So as far as introductions go:
I'm Knot of the DEN, but a lot of you newer folks probably know me as T. E. Lawrence of The Invaders. I started my Gameplay career in defending and flopped sides a couple years ago. I've been a leader of the two largest military organizations on NationStates, a GCR "delegate", a 4x World Assembly resolution author. I led the largest occupation in NS history, been voted up to the Gameplay Awards two years running (for some odd reason), and I recently retired from active gameplay a few weeks ago. Along with Unibot and Roavin, I've got too much of an obsession with NS history. Feel free to ask me anything about my careers, R/D history, a how-to, or pretty much anything.
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:13 PM
Alrighty, thank you for the brief synopsis, Knot. I'll mainly provide some simple questions and monitor the raucous audience chamber for any good questions
Would you speak more about your quotations regarding the "delegate" in GCR delegate? Basically, for those who don't know, as we've got a diverse group of folks here.
General Knot - Today at 10:17 PM
Sure. In the late summer of 2015, The West Pacific was going through a bunch of turmoil regarding its delegacy. United Russo-Asia, the delegate at the time, was going through some rough times with long periods of inactivity on NS - I remember that one of the Guardians, Mediobogdum, even took control of the delegacy for a couple days.
Compounding this unrest was some internal drama between URA and the rest of TWP's government. With the pressure mounting on him to resign, URA actually came to both me (representing DEN) and Ever-Wandering Souls (representing The Black Hawks) about taking The West Pacific into raider hands. I'm forgetting the specifics of the conversation, but we worked out details so that he'd allow us in by Halloween, near the end of his term. This occurred around mid-September.(edited)
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:22 PM
Aha, that's interesting. And as a consequence, how's TWP fairing today?(edited)
General Knot - Today at 10:27 PM
Fast forward a few days and I logged in to see The West Pacific waving a modified DEN flag. I was at work at the time, so I had pretty limited resources to find out what was going on. Apparently TWP's situation unraveled extremely quickly and the Guardians had already swapped endorsements until nearly to the point of unseating URA at the minor update. We Are Not the NSA and Shadoke of DEN took it upon themselves to prevent this delegacy transfer by one endorsement while making an agreement with URA to put up a raider WFE and fly the DEN flag (see image: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=486354). Once I got home, I was given the password to URA's delegate nation (it was barely hanging on by then) and proceeded to purge about 200 nations from The West Pacific, enabling DEN to occupy TWP until the next minor update. I have to admit, the response by TWP's imperialist/independent allies, as well as all the other GCRs and defender organizations, was furious. I crossed another bullet point of my NS bucket list that day.(edited)
The West Pacific's doing great as of today. But for many months after this incident, The West Pacific had an unspoken (and at times, very outspoken) view against invaders in general. Given that TWPAF is very raider-leaning these days, I'd say that this "coup" has been beneficial to all parties involved. No longer was The West Pacific divided by internal strife and disagreement after this incident - they had all united (against us) within an update.
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:30 PM
As a raider who has been around for quite some time, would you consider this to be the apex of your career thus far?
General Knot - Today at 10:36 PM
I wouldn't say that. While the "coup" of The West Pacific certainly made waves and affected a great deal of people, it didn't monumentally affect me. The apex of my raiding career, in terms of invasions, would be St Abbaddon, but I'll delve into that more in-depth later. Overall, my most important achievement has been the successful revival of The Invaders, a raiding organization from antiquity that closed its doors nine or ten years ago.
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:38 PM
Ah yes, one of the olfdest invading orgs. I hear you have an affinity toward history. Switching gears a bit, how would you consider the current state of the raiding / defending game these days?
General Knot - Today at 10:42 PM
Many people have recently been talking about R/D's slow but sure demise, citing a variety of reasons including a lack of interest in a repetitive meta-game that was getting too old too quickly - if all of the notable achievements have already been achieved, what's the point of repeating them?
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:43 PM
An always-infused influx of new players, perhaps?
General Knot - Today at 10:47 PM
I will have to disagree with their beliefs. In the 1890's, pundits proclaimed a so-called "Golden Age", where they asserted that everything worth inventing had already been invented. But let me tell you, it's all from the relative perspectives of that time. Henry Ford would have his socks blown off if he saw air conditioning (air conditioning!) in cars (in cars!), when all he had was a rickety model T that spouted exhaust in the passengers' faces.
The Invasion (or R/D) game is constantly evolving - and no matter who likes it and who doesn't, changes will occur and people will have to adapt.
In 2006, invaders screamed mod bias when influence was implemented to help protect natives (and defenders).
And in 2015, defenders screamed mod bias when regional officers were implemented to further gameplay for nations all around the world, no matter their ideology or creed.
Another point on why R/D will continue to have its constant attention (and drama!) is the fact that every organization is changing and the individuals playing in the invasion game are also shifting - veterans leaving and, as you said Todd, new people are joining. Many organizations and invasions of today are incomparable to those of years gone by, partially due to the sheer number of people playing NationStates today.
To answer your question Todd, the current state of the raiding/defending game is both like the game of the past, as its fluctuating behavior is constant, and unlike it, due to its inherently perpetual shifting nature.(edited)
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:55 PM
Understood. Many are under the impression that several certain negative aspects within the R&D sphere have harmed this side of gameplay, if you will. This somewhat leads into a question proposed by @Ike Do you feel like the decline of R/D is influenced in any way by the collapse of raiding and defending hegemonies? After a decade of Black Rider monopoly on raiding, and UDL/associates dominating the defending sphere, the two sides of gameplay seem much less united than before.
General Knot - Today at 11:02 PM
There will always be a pseudo-hegemonic tendency to both sides of the R/D game. Collapses of massive spheres of influence tend to lead to a refractory period, but another will arise in short time. Saying that a "decade" of TBR (The Black Riders) vs. UDL (United Defenders League) conflict occurred is much too optimistic, given that both TBR (in full fashion) and UDL arose in 2011 and sunk in 2015 and 2014, respectively.
I can exemplify these rises and falls on both sides throughout NS history for you as well.(edited)
Todd McCloud - Today at 11:03 PM
Sure, that'd be workable
General Knot - Today at 11:07 PM
From Antiquity until about 2006-07, raiding giants such as DEN, Atlantic Central Command, and Invaders really defined what it meant to "raid", while the Rejected Realms Army (after its flip), Alliance Defense Network, and Red Liberty Alliance combated this newfound aggression by any means necessary (including the destruction of raider fora (TBH, Invaders, and more), justifying their actions as a consequence to raiders destroying native communities. This is not to say that the other side was completely innocent either, as DEN operatives destroyed the forum of Renegade Islands Alliance a few years later.
From then, invaders settled into a refractory period, as many of the influential raiding giants fell into inactivity or ruin, while other regions such as The Black Hawks was refounded to begin a new era. On the other side, the Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA) was formed in 2006 to replace a dying ADN.
During this period until about 2011, imperialists, while not strictly raiders, took control and began to marshal their forces into the first few incarnations of the United Imperial Armed Forces.
In 2011, as I mentioned above, The Black Riders and United Defenders League really began to monopolize raiding and defending once again into two distinct spheres of influence. Over the next few years, The Black Riders defined "tag-raiding" as we know it, while, in 2012, The Black Hawks led the charge for the massive and impressive invasions and occupations we all yearn for under the leadership of Jakker.
With the fall of The Black Riders and devolution of the United Defenders League, both sides of R/D fell into a rut. DEN quickly rose once again in mid-2015 to monopolize invading (at the time of its demise, DEN was the home to over 1300 nations while the next largest raider region had less than 150). I'm happy to say that the vast majority of raiding leaders today was trained by DEN during this time period. With the collapse of DEN in 2016 came a re-invigoration of defending in the form of The Grey Wardens with their "extremist" vision of defending that didn't shy away of raiding. Trust me, the defenders of years past (such as me back then) would have shunned them away very quickly (TGW's 1st era in 2015). This occurred as raiding transformed into the control of a couple large, but not massive, regions (The Invaders and The Black Hawks). I'm purposefully leaving off Firehelm and Hydra Command for a reason in this analysis, as they weren't on polarizing ends of this divide.
I firmly believe that, given time, raiding will once again manifest itself as a single entity, as opposed to the current multi-hegemonic state as of today.
Todd McCloud - Today at 11:21 PM
I understand. With that, I follow with a question from @Sygian How did Knot start his hobby of exploring NS history?
General Knot - Today at 11:27 PM
Pure curiosity and a desire to learn. I started getting involved on the NationStates forum through the World Assembly, so I'd have to go through many histories to grab the content I wanted to address and/or explain. When I first entered the defending world, many people suspected me to be someone I wasn't, a certain DoS player that was vastly infamous among mainstream gameplayers., so there was my introduction to the regional militaries of old. When I started leading anti-fascist operations, I worked with a great deal of invaders, which made me rather curious about what the other side was like. Reading about raiding eventually took me from the present to the past.
@La Navasse offered an interesting rebuttal, which I'd like to address.(edited)
Todd McCloud - Today at 11:28 PM
For reference, @La Navasse 's initial rebuttal was: @General Knot, no. Given enough time, when the population of nations in NS increases enough, there will be a certain tipping point where there's enough nations for there to be multiple large raiding regions, each catering to certain interests. Unity wouldn't be desirable, for the simple reason that it would be inconvenient.
And sure, go ahead
General Knot - Today at 11:38 PM
You may be correct, @La Navasse, in the context of a NationStates that was many times larger than what it is now. I believe, however, that we are near this point. In addition to the need of individuals for the ability to coordinate the logistics of a massive army and for the technical expertise of raiding, regions need to stay attractive to newcomers, as well as fund the ability to portray their attractiveness to newcomers. Furthermore, once one region begins to gain an edge in anything, anything from successful invasions to activity levels to sustainability, the other region(s) begin to lose one. The prospect of having all these aspects come together and coherently work together is very narrow, even in the expanding NationStates multiverse of today. Even though you're thinking eons ahead, @La Navasse, you still have to remember that history always repeats itself, from the early days consisting of raiding "giants" of 50 nations to DEN's 1300 nation population, and I cannot see an indication when this cyclical pattern will change... ever, even with a growing NS population.
Todd McCloud - Today at 11:39 PM
Thank you for the answer, @General Knot . We have time for one more question (apologies, @Benjamin ). This one comes from @Stalker What advice do you have for founderless to avoid getting raided and on how to survive a raid when it does happen?
General Knot - Today at 11:47 PM
@Stalker runs a tight ship in Hell. His founderless region should be the model of how to avoid being raided. I remember one region that attempted to copy Hell's form of entry - Singapore. Unfortunately, without his knowledge and expertise on how gameplay mechanics work, the natives didn't change their hidden password in time for update after I moved in, and The Invaders broke through their seemingly impenetrable wall. If you've got time on your hands, @Stalker, you could become famous for helping other founderless regions out in perfecting Hell's model. Even though it's not foolproof, it's pretty damn good about keeping invaders away by setting a daunting boulder in front of us.
On surviving a raid when it happens - resist, resist, and resist. Do anything (within NS rules, of course) to gain an advantage over the invaders, because that little something could very well be the difference between having defenders succeed or fail on a liberation attempt. Social Liberal Union was particularly adamant about not going gently into the good night, even if it meant quietly breaking a few rules - they ran unendorsement campaigns, impersonated our commanders to order our troops to retreat, one especially shifty native found out the approximate location of where I lived and offered to deliver pizza to my home. Yeah, don't do that. It'll get you DEATed.
Todd McCloud - Today at 11:52 PM
Ouch. Yeah, no pizza'sending
Well, that concludes our interview with @General Knot . See you all tomorrow, when we wrap up lectures and conclude the fair!
General Knot - Today at 11:55 PM
Thanks for having me, @Todd McCloud!
Todd McCloud - Today at 11:58 PM
No problem, thank you for volunteering!

[Borovan4]

Interesting
Ok now I know why The grey wardens r an extremist group now.
I just saw a post saying that they Invade raider regions. They then had ejected a native and pass worded the region.

This is a little harsh, I'm not trying to align with one side either way, but this isn't fair and hypocritical.

[Libetarian Republics]

Interesting
Ok now I know why The grey wardens r an extremist group now.
I just saw a post saying that they Invade raider regions. They then had ejected a native and pass worded the region.

This is a little harsh, I'm not trying to align with one side either way, but this isn't fair and hypocritical.

Can you clarify what you mean an extremist group?

[Borovan4]

Invading imperial and non big raiding groups and pass wording them. They r also like chasing too much.

Don't know what reason knot meant but one of this.

[Libetarian Republics]

Invading imperial and non big raiding groups and pass wording them. They r also like chasing too much.

Don't know what reason knot meant but one of this.

Invading by defender-oriented groups is nothing new. The most prominent non-TGW example is TITO (the military of the 10000 Islands). On multiple occasion, they attacked enemy regions they were at war with. I believe the Alliance Defense Network, another historic defender group, had a "black ops" division that invades enemy regions as well (need ref.?)

The reason why anyone may consider TGW to be an "extremist group" is because they expanded the scope of invading enemy regions. Additionally, the philosophies of the FRA/UDL were the norm of the defender world for years prior to the rise of TGW.

Edit: I'm not contesting your post just providing some context.

[Fauxia]

Interesting
Ok now I know why The grey wardens r an extremist group now.
I just saw a post saying that they Invade raider regions. They then had ejected a native and pass worded the region.

This is a little harsh, I'm not trying to align with one side either way, but this isn't fair and hypocritical.

As a member of The Grey Wardens, I can’t say I enjoy your painting of us as an extremist group.

Chasing is fun, anyway

[frattastan]

Defending has many flavours. The idea that attacking invader regions is permissible, even if never accepted by everyone, is (or was) nothing uncommon.

Most defenders consider invasions "wrong" because they are unprovoked, and directed against peaceful regions that did nothing to deserve an attack beyond looking appealing for someone's raiding or colonisation projects; in this view, attacking invaders can be justified as a form of self-defence.
Also, some defenders see themselves "at war" with all invaders (and vice versa - wouldn't invaders prioritise defender and defender-friendly regions if they had a chance to strike?): attacking raiders then is only an extension of the usual rivalry against them.

Whatever the reason, this is largely inconsequential: groups that are an active threat to others are virtually never founderless, which means that attacking them will change nothing when it comes to your security or the security of other regions; the main drive then becomes revenge against long-dead rivals (or making fun of newbs that never amounted to anything).
And even if they are active and become vulnerable because of a sudden founder deletion (like it happened to The DEN when TITO invaded it, or to The Black Riders when those natives started piling there), it's not rare to find out that pure military organisations will not care about their home base, and will just move elsewhere if they lose it.

Ok now I know why The grey wardens r an extremist group now.

Defining "extremism" is actually hard.
TITO forbids its members from befriending their opponents, and their mission statement considers invaders as cyberbullies (and not just opponents in the context of a game).
The FRA had a more relaxed attitude, but unlike TITO it pledged to defend all regions, including Nazis and forum destroyers (ie, in practice no invasion was ever possibly justified, no matter how bad the target).
What is more extremist? And wouldn't TGW be milder than both?

[Manson]

TGW isn't extremist.

They weren't the first to invade raiding groups, and they won't be the last.

Edit: What's wrong with chasing? It's fun, and it's a form of defending.

[Guy]

Chasing just means that instead of reacting to one-off invasions, you're reacting to a burst of sequential invasions ('tagging')

imho tagging sucks out the fun out of R/D, and that's squarely on invaders, but ymmv