fakereal
KNOW THE DIFFERENCEThe NSTech Panel - 2014
with Hobbes, Eluvatar, and Quietdad.
"Try, Fail Miserably, Repeat"
Wut is it? Where is lengthy essay I will pretend to read?
No essays. The purpose of this talk is a roundtable between us the panelists and the NS public on the misconceptions and information around involving NS related tech. This will split off into several topics in a open-everyone can talk discussion.
- Opening/introductions
- Forums: You're (probably) doing them wrong.
- API, its flaws, and how it works with various 3rd party NS sites.
- Bots: Wat they do, and how they do it
- Social Engerring / Your s00per secret data probably isn't safe...SPAIS
- Ignorance really is bliss: How misconceptions of the general public can/will derail entire projects.
- Rift
- Idea --> Software --> ??? ---> Profit
- Whatever else gets brought up.
- Questions at panelists.
- Closing.
12PM EST, Saturday, December 20
Logs
Will be posted at the completion of this event.
Spoiler: click to toggle
<hobbes> so
[11:59:15] <hobbes> rip all
[11:59:54] *** Eluvatar sets mode: +oo hobbes QuietDad
[12:05:15] <hobbes> So
[12:05:20] <hobbes> Everyone not dead?
[12:06:15] <QuietDad> On life support. Using technology
[12:08:07] <hobbes> I see
[12:08:09] <hobbes> well, rip all.
[12:08:26] <QuietDad> Isn't this YOUR talk? lol
[12:08:29] <Donald_ET3> Isn't a lecture about to start?
[12:08:35] <hobbes> It's a tech roundtable
[12:08:40] <hobbes> but roundtables generally, require participation
[12:08:49] <madjack> roundtable hype
[12:09:06] <QuietDad> And a moderator to get it all started....
[12:09:06] <Ananke> As speakers you could start it up though.
[12:09:20] <Eluvatar> Agreed.
[12:09:35] <QuietDad> Yak, man. Yak.
[12:10:10] <Eluvatar> So this was the brief intro I threw together 9 hours ago
[12:10:17] <Eluvatar> Eluvatar once made a toaster. And then he learned PHP was a fractal of bad design, so he made another one. Then the API came into existence, and he came to hate all the HTML parsing code he had, so he started on a bunch of non-monolithic things. Then Admin asked him to take care of NS++ D:
[12:10:35] <Eluvatar> ( http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fra ... ad-design/ )
[12:10:57] <Eluvatar> moral of that particular story: don't use PHP if you can avoid it
[12:11:10] <QuietDad> PHP died years ago
[12:11:25] <Eluvatar> yeah well I wrote the first Toaster in 2006
[12:11:35] <Donald_ET3> But w3schools.com still teaches PHP.
[12:11:44] <hobbes> php never dies
[12:11:46] <QuietDad> THE most unsecure programming language EVER
[12:11:47] <hobbes> it is eternal
[12:11:50] <hobbes> Unsecure
[12:11:51] <hobbes> but eternal
[12:12:03] <Donald_ET3> Do you prefer plain Perl?
[12:12:26] <Donald_ET3> What's the alternative?
[12:12:31] <QuietDad> Prefer C++
[12:12:38] <Donald_ET3> Oh.
[12:12:48] <QuietDad> But that's just me
[12:14:02] <Eluvatar> Toaster2 was written in Ruby
[12:14:10] <Eluvatar> and I still use some ruby scripts for NS
[12:14:15] <Eluvatar> but right now I mostly use python
[12:14:46] <hobbes> so, anyways
[12:14:55] <Eluvatar> mostly because python's the language I have written an API ratelimiting library for so far -- https://github.com/Eluvatar/trawler-client-python
[12:14:56] <hobbes> the iternerary is probably getting thrown out as we don't really need crowd control
[12:15:20] <Eluvatar> I think having an outline of what to talk about helps
[12:15:27] <Eluvatar> I invie hobbes to introduce himself now
[12:15:30] <Eluvatar> *invite
[12:15:39] <hobbes> yes
[12:15:41] <hobbes> so
[12:16:09] <hobbes> i'm hobbes, I do server related stuff and creep in QuietDad's bedroom on my free time. A few years ago i started with this mess on San Andreas Multiplayer, and just kind of taught myself accross the board.
[12:16:39] <hobbes> I do a lot of website and forum teching which is why i do a lot of admining on NS
[12:16:45] <hobbes> or did a lot of admining, cough, lazarus, cough
[12:16:59] <hobbes> I aslo developed Serina, both interations of RadioNS, and NationNet though it's kind of a dead project atm
[12:17:21] <hobbes> that's kind of all I got, I went all night due to my cat being in surgery (and still is) so half-asleep
[12:17:21] <hobbes>
[12:17:49] <Eluvatar> yikes
[12:17:57] <QuietDad> i'm hobbes, I do server related stuff and creep in QuietDad's bedroom <--- banned to the basement now
[12:18:02] <Eluvatar> lol
[12:18:33] <QuietDad> Hobbes is now headless and under a pool table in the basement
[12:18:43] <Eluvatar> QuietDad, and you?
[12:19:32] <Donald_ET3> Do most people here know what a toaster is? This is the first time I've heard that term in this context.
[12:20:10] <Donald_ET3> sry
[12:20:32] <Eluvatar> toaster was the name of my website with endorsement counts, endorsements given counts, lists of natiosn you haven't endorsed, manual recruitment coordination, feeder movement logs, and feeder + certain other regions RMB logs
[12:20:40] <hobbes> It also made toast
[12:20:48] <madjack> I'm choosing to believe that Elu's coding is all in the pursuit of the perfect toast
[12:20:50] <QuietDad> I am a 35 year IT professional. My name is one of many on the original ODBC 1.0 bought from my company, where I designed and led the initial development team, for use in creating Windows fow WOrk Groups 3.1
[12:21:05] <Eluvatar> NS > RL
[12:21:13] <QuietDad> I got a Lucite Plaque, comapny I was working for got 40 million
[12:21:39] <Eluvatar> (I mean, we should probably be talking about our role in NS, not outside of it. idk)
[12:21:53] <QuietDad> Was once VP of data communications for Sony USA (pre internet days)
[12:22:33] <Donald_ET3> Wow. You guys are important people! O_O
[12:22:57] <QuietDad> I have no real role in NS. I was involved in recommending options in TSP last year in finding a new home for our forums after a brief non technical issue
[12:22:59] <madjack> til QuietDad pulled The Interview
[12:23:14] <KringPhone> :O
[12:23:19] <Eluvatar> OK. So hobbes, what's "Forums: You're (probably) doing them wrong." about? Not an argument against free hosting services in general, I hope?
[12:24:14] <Raven|afk> I thought it would be about set up and how the board layout/features can affect the community
[12:24:29] <Raven|afk> i.e. a million top level sections
[12:25:29] <QuietDad> TSP's forum, created by a user in Peru, on a free host in chicago with a .mx domain seems to work
[12:25:42] <Eluvatar> Yeah I've led a crusade in TNP since 2012 to bring the list of top level boards down and keep it down
[12:25:45] <KringPhone> lol
[12:25:51] <KringPhone> I didn't create the forum
[12:25:57] <KringPhone> Glen did
[12:27:43] <Eluvatar> Compare web.archive.org/web/20120217005427/http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/index/#top with the current layout >__>
[12:29:29] <Eluvatar> I think that making too big of an index is only one of many mistakes people often make
[12:29:55] <Eluvatar> Early on, people would use all sorts of free forums for NS: conforums, proboards...
[12:30:10] <Eluvatar> I find it interesting how the consensus has mostly settled on |invisionfree|/zetaboards at this point
[12:30:25] <QuietDad> Main issue I have with ALL the forums is each step in the NS forum process seems to require a new subforum you need to search for
[12:30:29] <Eluvatar> To a significant extent because proboards used to store passwords in plaintext, and allow password recovery.
[12:30:59] <QuietDad> Zeta is now owned by proboards....
[12:31:05] <ANewCentury> zeta is pretty good
[12:31:16] <QuietDad> And their free hosting platform
[12:32:29] <Eluvatar> I think people started to move away from proboards not because they didn't trust the company per se
[12:32:41] <Eluvatar> but because of a particular implementation detail regarding passwords
[12:32:50] <QuietDad> Anyone else have the belief that the forums are as they are because as people move on to other regions and create new ones, they design to what they know?
[12:33:06] <hobbes> well den
[12:33:06] <Eluvatar> There was an actual incident by the way: one Lady Blue Moon surreptitiously obtained admin power on a regional forum, as I understand it,
[12:33:07] <madjack> the only ns forum i like the look of is on proboards
[12:33:28] <Eluvatar> then used these powers to change users' emails to her own, then used password recovery
[12:33:32] <hobbes> @Quietdad
[12:33:37] <hobbes> they're slow or unresponsive half of the time
[12:33:38] <Eluvatar> -- then used the so obtained passwords to log into their NS nations
[12:33:38] <hobbes> but works
[12:33:46] <Eluvatar> (Mainly to eavesdrop on TGs as I understand it)
[12:33:53] <Eluvatar> This was not considered okay.
[12:33:56] <ANewCentury> that is evil
[12:35:57] <Eluvatar> http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2 ... index.html
[12:35:58] <Eluvatar> ^ relevant
[12:36:00] <QuietDad> It's really much simpler than that. Every PHP website in the word has a config.php page on it. In the case of Public Domain boards, it's really not the hard to get the code, figure out the variables in it, call the hosted site's config.php and display the variables
[12:38:00] <QuietDad> That will get you the SQL database useid and password, then with any of the phpadmin pages or mySQLadmin pages it's really easy to get a root admin id and password in the database
[12:39:00] <Eluvatar> What... are you talking about?
[12:39:01] <Donald_ET3> So, is that what people are talking about when they say that computer security is much worse than it could be?
[12:39:19] * Unibot waves.
[12:39:24] <hobbes> you're late
[12:39:30] <Unibot> I know, I apologise.
[12:39:33] * Donald_ET3 salutes
[12:39:38] * Unibot salutes back.
[12:39:41] <Eluvatar> Are you talking about how easy it is to manipulate a forum if you have access to the configured secrets?
[12:39:45] <Eluvatar> Yeah, it definitely is.
[12:40:51] <Eluvatar> But I don't think that's relevant to a discussion of the ways people commonly do forums wrong in NS
[12:41:37] <QuietDad> One of the issues in computer security is that using free hosts with their default forum addons is security. The Interweb is NOT a safe place. Ever
[12:42:13] <Eluvatar> Not sure I follow: are you saying that (reputable) free forum hosts generally pay a lot of attention to security
[12:42:18] <Eluvatar> and can have taken care of it for you?
[12:42:22] <QuietDad> And most of the forums are click and shoot design by people that really have no clue on web design
[12:43:41] <Eluvatar> yes
[12:43:44] <QuietDad> I use free hosts for some of my commercial accounts that dont warrant the expenses of paying for a hosted account. In all cases, I never use the cpanel supplied software on it. I use things NOT on it
[12:44:12] <Eluvatar> That sounds like the opposite logic
[12:45:17] <Eluvatar> Well we seem tired of talking about forums
[12:45:57] <Eluvatar> long story short: be smart! Try to actually design them sensibly, and if you care about security(which you should) use reputable services and/or do it properly yourself.
[12:45:59] <QuietDad> For example on Web design. When I visit the current TSP forum (myBB), the FIRST thing I do is click "View new posts" and right click and tab on what I want to read. There SHOULD be a "Mark all forums read" link on the search results screen, but it's only available on the main index
[12:46:16] <Eluvatar> Next on our agenda we have "API, its flaws, and how it works with various 3rd party NS sites."
[12:46:44] <Eluvatar> The most 'fun' aspect of working with the API is its rate limit
[12:47:31] <Eluvatar> it makes running more than one program at a time, and webpages that use NS data, significantly more complicated than they could otherwise be
[12:48:43] <hobbes> the issue with API is that it doesen't quite care who calls it
[12:48:49] <Eluvatar> The two solutions I've seen for running multiple things at once have been keeping each program to a separate, smaller, rate so that the total rate is within the limit; and using a throttling program of some kind
[12:48:51] <hobbes> at least, the current system
[12:49:08] <Eluvatar> what do you mean, hobbes?
[12:49:17] <hobbes> for example
[12:49:32] <hobbes> given the API code, I can pretend to be, say, NSWiki
[12:49:43] <hobbes> theres no real authentication on who the API is talking to to my knowledge
[12:50:19] <Eluvatar> That's right
[12:50:47] <Eluvatar> Well, mostly
[12:51:15] <Eluvatar> There's 2 authentication systems in the API: 1 seeks to authenticate NS nations as such, and one authenticates telegram scripts
[12:51:29] <Eluvatar> the telegram script authentication system is actually pretty solid
[12:51:37] <Eluvatar> (as far as I can tell)
[12:51:59] <Eluvatar> I mean it'd be /better/ if you used a derived shared secret rather than giving the equivalent of the private key each time
[12:52:27] <Eluvatar> but you use the private password to log in to your nation so it's probably fine
[12:52:33] <Eluvatar> *a
[12:52:39] <hobbes> mhm
[12:52:53] <Eluvatar> The Authentication API however is terrible and should never have existed in its current form
[12:52:57] <Eluvatar> <_<
[12:53:26] <Eluvatar> This is because, as hobbes points out, there's no authentication of the program checking it
[12:53:38] <Eluvatar> so it's completely open to man in the middle attacks
[12:53:50] <Eluvatar> This is why I will repeat this advice:
[12:53:59] <Eluvatar> If you're writing a new NS service, do not use the NS Auth API
[12:54:14] <Eluvatar> If you're an NS++ user, do not use the NS Auth API for anything but an NS++ service
[12:54:33] <QuietDad> I really don't have extensive knowledge of the NS API, but isn't it only read only?
[12:54:55] <Eluvatar> (that's http://www.nationstates.net/page=verify_login )
[12:55:05] <Eluvatar> QuietDad, everything but the telegram sending API is read only
[12:55:39] <Eluvatar> the problem is that that verify_login page, combined with the auth API to check its tokens, is not secure against man-in-the-middle
[12:55:56] <hobbes> FYI guys, you are all open mic
[12:55:56] <Eluvatar> I'm sure there are plans in the works to fix this
[12:56:05] <hobbes> I believe violet has discussed it in the past
[12:56:30] <QuietDad> It just seems that it's limited. There are several instances of people taking the daily dumps and loading their own databases to get what they want how they want it
[12:57:23] <Eluvatar> There's a reason the daily dumps are made available
[12:57:37] <Eluvatar> It's definitely much higher bandwidth than the API
[12:59:41] <hobbes> mhm
[13:00:13] <QuietDad> I tried to look at it a while back to write a simple routine to generate a table of all the nations I had endorsed AND all the nations that had endorsed me and give me a list of who I hadn't cross endorsed and qho hadn't returned the endos I had given and didnt feel like having to load a data dumpevery day to keep it current
[13:00:55] <Eluvatar> the dumps do not contain endorsement information
[13:01:27] <Eluvatar> It used to be necessary to obtain the list of WA nations from the daily dumps: I have http://www.thenorthpacific.org/api/ from that age
[13:01:41] <QuietDad> But it does show who is endorsed to who and a simple outer join gives me what I need to knwo
[13:01:43] <QuietDad> know
[13:01:54] <Eluvatar> (The region_name.txt files are updated nightly with the list of WAs in the region at the major update)
[13:02:46] <Eluvatar> as far as I know, neither nations.xml nor regions.xml contain any endorsement information at all
[13:02:55] <Eluvatar> not even the nations endorsing the given nation
[13:03:21] <Eluvatar> that can only be obtained through the 'live' API as far as I know
[13:03:34] <Eluvatar> And I just double checked
[13:03:52] <QuietDad> It's been a long time since I was looking at it and dont remember, but there was a way to get a nation and all the nations it had endorsed
[13:03:58] <Eluvatar> Yes, through the live API
[13:04:14] <Eluvatar> i.e. http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/api ... _bonaparte
[13:04:31] <Eluvatar> -> <NATION id="pauline_bonaparte"><ENDORSEMENTS>ss_longclaw,arugula_supreme,samoupravljanje,the_doctor_in_the_tardis,yalia,james_brown,-suntzu-,harpatezlomnelea,motion_and_stillness,tranquil_winds,slamtopia,tannenmille,clone_wars,cervelat_salami,soviet_canuckistan,omnipotent_thomas,ainin_x,crosseye_jack,sweet_pestilence,oitseasetei,oton_atcel,patent_troll,club_stoic,51st_highlanders,tnoeser,1903_a_new_century,the_uss_kildonan,crusader_ii,gerfwe,obbanstantz</ENDORSEMENTS></NATION>
[13:04:51] <QuietDad> Loike I said. It's been a while
[13:05:03] <hobbes> I've always been too lazy
[13:05:08] <hobbes> to fuck with api
[13:05:20] <Eluvatar> jackiechan.gif
[13:05:27] <hobbes> ^
[13:05:34] <QuietDad> Same here. eventually it gets to be more of an effort than the info it would produse
[13:05:44] *** Joins: Ballotonia
[13:05:48] *** Eluvatar sets mode: +o Ballotonia
[13:05:54] <Eluvatar> We were just talking about the APi
[13:05:57] <hobbes> admin sighting
[13:05:58] <hobbes> hide the booze
[13:06:02] <hobbes> and hacks
[13:06:09] <Eluvatar> and thanks by the by for adding the list-of-nations-in-the-WA API
[13:06:23] <Ballotonia> What if I WANT some booze?
[13:06:55] <QuietDad> I was going to make a WAMP server to load with the dumps and interface with the API, but I gave it to someone to help heat my house with
[13:06:57] <Eluvatar> Well then I'll just have to get some harpoon UFO for you
[13:07:19] <Eluvatar> WAMP = wrong
[13:07:22] <Eluvatar> <_<
[13:07:58] <Eluvatar> The most lengthy API discussion however was about security and the Auth API
[13:08:07] <hobbes> fyi, people with no voice
[13:08:11] <hobbes> round table, you're free to talk
[13:08:19] <QuietDad> I usually do Centos LAMP servers, but in this case Wamp was easier. and WAMP is just to get it loaded then play with it for real
[13:09:54] <QuietDad> And any of the LAMP/WAMP distros have their limitations. Most are designed to work on a desktop and not host sites
[13:10:08] <Eluvatar> Well our discussion of the API seems to have died down
[13:10:15] <Eluvatar> No questions from the audience, it seems.
[13:10:30] <Eluvatar> The next item on hobbes agenda was "Bots: Wat they do, and how they do it"
[11:59:15] <hobbes> rip all
[11:59:54] *** Eluvatar sets mode: +oo hobbes QuietDad
[12:05:15] <hobbes> So
[12:05:20] <hobbes> Everyone not dead?
[12:06:15] <QuietDad> On life support. Using technology
[12:08:07] <hobbes> I see
[12:08:09] <hobbes> well, rip all.
[12:08:26] <QuietDad> Isn't this YOUR talk? lol
[12:08:29] <Donald_ET3> Isn't a lecture about to start?
[12:08:35] <hobbes> It's a tech roundtable
[12:08:40] <hobbes> but roundtables generally, require participation
[12:08:49] <madjack> roundtable hype
[12:09:06] <QuietDad> And a moderator to get it all started....
[12:09:06] <Ananke> As speakers you could start it up though.
[12:09:20] <Eluvatar> Agreed.
[12:09:35] <QuietDad> Yak, man. Yak.
[12:10:10] <Eluvatar> So this was the brief intro I threw together 9 hours ago
[12:10:17] <Eluvatar> Eluvatar once made a toaster. And then he learned PHP was a fractal of bad design, so he made another one. Then the API came into existence, and he came to hate all the HTML parsing code he had, so he started on a bunch of non-monolithic things. Then Admin asked him to take care of NS++ D:
[12:10:35] <Eluvatar> ( http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fra ... ad-design/ )
[12:10:57] <Eluvatar> moral of that particular story: don't use PHP if you can avoid it
[12:11:10] <QuietDad> PHP died years ago
[12:11:25] <Eluvatar> yeah well I wrote the first Toaster in 2006
[12:11:35] <Donald_ET3> But w3schools.com still teaches PHP.
[12:11:44] <hobbes> php never dies
[12:11:46] <QuietDad> THE most unsecure programming language EVER
[12:11:47] <hobbes> it is eternal
[12:11:50] <hobbes> Unsecure
[12:11:51] <hobbes> but eternal
[12:12:03] <Donald_ET3> Do you prefer plain Perl?
[12:12:26] <Donald_ET3> What's the alternative?
[12:12:31] <QuietDad> Prefer C++
[12:12:38] <Donald_ET3> Oh.
[12:12:48] <QuietDad> But that's just me
[12:14:02] <Eluvatar> Toaster2 was written in Ruby
[12:14:10] <Eluvatar> and I still use some ruby scripts for NS
[12:14:15] <Eluvatar> but right now I mostly use python
[12:14:46] <hobbes> so, anyways
[12:14:55] <Eluvatar> mostly because python's the language I have written an API ratelimiting library for so far -- https://github.com/Eluvatar/trawler-client-python
[12:14:56] <hobbes> the iternerary is probably getting thrown out as we don't really need crowd control
[12:15:20] <Eluvatar> I think having an outline of what to talk about helps
[12:15:27] <Eluvatar> I invie hobbes to introduce himself now
[12:15:30] <Eluvatar> *invite
[12:15:39] <hobbes> yes
[12:15:41] <hobbes> so
[12:16:09] <hobbes> i'm hobbes, I do server related stuff and creep in QuietDad's bedroom on my free time. A few years ago i started with this mess on San Andreas Multiplayer, and just kind of taught myself accross the board.
[12:16:39] <hobbes> I do a lot of website and forum teching which is why i do a lot of admining on NS
[12:16:45] <hobbes> or did a lot of admining, cough, lazarus, cough
[12:16:59] <hobbes> I aslo developed Serina, both interations of RadioNS, and NationNet though it's kind of a dead project atm
[12:17:21] <hobbes> that's kind of all I got, I went all night due to my cat being in surgery (and still is) so half-asleep
[12:17:21] <hobbes>
[12:17:49] <Eluvatar> yikes
[12:17:57] <QuietDad> i'm hobbes, I do server related stuff and creep in QuietDad's bedroom <--- banned to the basement now
[12:18:02] <Eluvatar> lol
[12:18:33] <QuietDad> Hobbes is now headless and under a pool table in the basement
[12:18:43] <Eluvatar> QuietDad, and you?
[12:19:32] <Donald_ET3> Do most people here know what a toaster is? This is the first time I've heard that term in this context.
[12:20:10] <Donald_ET3> sry
[12:20:32] <Eluvatar> toaster was the name of my website with endorsement counts, endorsements given counts, lists of natiosn you haven't endorsed, manual recruitment coordination, feeder movement logs, and feeder + certain other regions RMB logs
[12:20:40] <hobbes> It also made toast
[12:20:48] <madjack> I'm choosing to believe that Elu's coding is all in the pursuit of the perfect toast
[12:20:50] <QuietDad> I am a 35 year IT professional. My name is one of many on the original ODBC 1.0 bought from my company, where I designed and led the initial development team, for use in creating Windows fow WOrk Groups 3.1
[12:21:05] <Eluvatar> NS > RL
[12:21:13] <QuietDad> I got a Lucite Plaque, comapny I was working for got 40 million
[12:21:39] <Eluvatar> (I mean, we should probably be talking about our role in NS, not outside of it. idk)
[12:21:53] <QuietDad> Was once VP of data communications for Sony USA (pre internet days)
[12:22:33] <Donald_ET3> Wow. You guys are important people! O_O
[12:22:57] <QuietDad> I have no real role in NS. I was involved in recommending options in TSP last year in finding a new home for our forums after a brief non technical issue
[12:22:59] <madjack> til QuietDad pulled The Interview
[12:23:14] <KringPhone> :O
[12:23:19] <Eluvatar> OK. So hobbes, what's "Forums: You're (probably) doing them wrong." about? Not an argument against free hosting services in general, I hope?
[12:24:14] <Raven|afk> I thought it would be about set up and how the board layout/features can affect the community
[12:24:29] <Raven|afk> i.e. a million top level sections
[12:25:29] <QuietDad> TSP's forum, created by a user in Peru, on a free host in chicago with a .mx domain seems to work
[12:25:42] <Eluvatar> Yeah I've led a crusade in TNP since 2012 to bring the list of top level boards down and keep it down
[12:25:45] <KringPhone> lol
[12:25:51] <KringPhone> I didn't create the forum
[12:25:57] <KringPhone> Glen did
[12:27:43] <Eluvatar> Compare web.archive.org/web/20120217005427/http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/index/#top with the current layout >__>
[12:29:29] <Eluvatar> I think that making too big of an index is only one of many mistakes people often make
[12:29:55] <Eluvatar> Early on, people would use all sorts of free forums for NS: conforums, proboards...
[12:30:10] <Eluvatar> I find it interesting how the consensus has mostly settled on |invisionfree|/zetaboards at this point
[12:30:25] <QuietDad> Main issue I have with ALL the forums is each step in the NS forum process seems to require a new subforum you need to search for
[12:30:29] <Eluvatar> To a significant extent because proboards used to store passwords in plaintext, and allow password recovery.
[12:30:59] <QuietDad> Zeta is now owned by proboards....
[12:31:05] <ANewCentury> zeta is pretty good
[12:31:16] <QuietDad> And their free hosting platform
[12:32:29] <Eluvatar> I think people started to move away from proboards not because they didn't trust the company per se
[12:32:41] <Eluvatar> but because of a particular implementation detail regarding passwords
[12:32:50] <QuietDad> Anyone else have the belief that the forums are as they are because as people move on to other regions and create new ones, they design to what they know?
[12:33:06] <hobbes> well den
[12:33:06] <Eluvatar> There was an actual incident by the way: one Lady Blue Moon surreptitiously obtained admin power on a regional forum, as I understand it,
[12:33:07] <madjack> the only ns forum i like the look of is on proboards
[12:33:28] <Eluvatar> then used these powers to change users' emails to her own, then used password recovery
[12:33:32] <hobbes> @Quietdad
[12:33:37] <hobbes> they're slow or unresponsive half of the time
[12:33:38] <Eluvatar> -- then used the so obtained passwords to log into their NS nations
[12:33:38] <hobbes> but works
[12:33:46] <Eluvatar> (Mainly to eavesdrop on TGs as I understand it)
[12:33:53] <Eluvatar> This was not considered okay.
[12:33:56] <ANewCentury> that is evil
[12:35:57] <Eluvatar> http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2 ... index.html
[12:35:58] <Eluvatar> ^ relevant
[12:36:00] <QuietDad> It's really much simpler than that. Every PHP website in the word has a config.php page on it. In the case of Public Domain boards, it's really not the hard to get the code, figure out the variables in it, call the hosted site's config.php and display the variables
[12:38:00] <QuietDad> That will get you the SQL database useid and password, then with any of the phpadmin pages or mySQLadmin pages it's really easy to get a root admin id and password in the database
[12:39:00] <Eluvatar> What... are you talking about?
[12:39:01] <Donald_ET3> So, is that what people are talking about when they say that computer security is much worse than it could be?
[12:39:19] * Unibot waves.
[12:39:24] <hobbes> you're late
[12:39:30] <Unibot> I know, I apologise.
[12:39:33] * Donald_ET3 salutes
[12:39:38] * Unibot salutes back.
[12:39:41] <Eluvatar> Are you talking about how easy it is to manipulate a forum if you have access to the configured secrets?
[12:39:45] <Eluvatar> Yeah, it definitely is.
[12:40:51] <Eluvatar> But I don't think that's relevant to a discussion of the ways people commonly do forums wrong in NS
[12:41:37] <QuietDad> One of the issues in computer security is that using free hosts with their default forum addons is security. The Interweb is NOT a safe place. Ever
[12:42:13] <Eluvatar> Not sure I follow: are you saying that (reputable) free forum hosts generally pay a lot of attention to security
[12:42:18] <Eluvatar> and can have taken care of it for you?
[12:42:22] <QuietDad> And most of the forums are click and shoot design by people that really have no clue on web design
[12:43:41] <Eluvatar> yes
[12:43:44] <QuietDad> I use free hosts for some of my commercial accounts that dont warrant the expenses of paying for a hosted account. In all cases, I never use the cpanel supplied software on it. I use things NOT on it
[12:44:12] <Eluvatar> That sounds like the opposite logic
[12:45:17] <Eluvatar> Well we seem tired of talking about forums
[12:45:57] <Eluvatar> long story short: be smart! Try to actually design them sensibly, and if you care about security(which you should) use reputable services and/or do it properly yourself.
[12:45:59] <QuietDad> For example on Web design. When I visit the current TSP forum (myBB), the FIRST thing I do is click "View new posts" and right click and tab on what I want to read. There SHOULD be a "Mark all forums read" link on the search results screen, but it's only available on the main index
[12:46:16] <Eluvatar> Next on our agenda we have "API, its flaws, and how it works with various 3rd party NS sites."
[12:46:44] <Eluvatar> The most 'fun' aspect of working with the API is its rate limit
[12:47:31] <Eluvatar> it makes running more than one program at a time, and webpages that use NS data, significantly more complicated than they could otherwise be
[12:48:43] <hobbes> the issue with API is that it doesen't quite care who calls it
[12:48:49] <Eluvatar> The two solutions I've seen for running multiple things at once have been keeping each program to a separate, smaller, rate so that the total rate is within the limit; and using a throttling program of some kind
[12:48:51] <hobbes> at least, the current system
[12:49:08] <Eluvatar> what do you mean, hobbes?
[12:49:17] <hobbes> for example
[12:49:32] <hobbes> given the API code, I can pretend to be, say, NSWiki
[12:49:43] <hobbes> theres no real authentication on who the API is talking to to my knowledge
[12:50:19] <Eluvatar> That's right
[12:50:47] <Eluvatar> Well, mostly
[12:51:15] <Eluvatar> There's 2 authentication systems in the API: 1 seeks to authenticate NS nations as such, and one authenticates telegram scripts
[12:51:29] <Eluvatar> the telegram script authentication system is actually pretty solid
[12:51:37] <Eluvatar> (as far as I can tell)
[12:51:59] <Eluvatar> I mean it'd be /better/ if you used a derived shared secret rather than giving the equivalent of the private key each time
[12:52:27] <Eluvatar> but you use the private password to log in to your nation so it's probably fine
[12:52:33] <Eluvatar> *a
[12:52:39] <hobbes> mhm
[12:52:53] <Eluvatar> The Authentication API however is terrible and should never have existed in its current form
[12:52:57] <Eluvatar> <_<
[12:53:26] <Eluvatar> This is because, as hobbes points out, there's no authentication of the program checking it
[12:53:38] <Eluvatar> so it's completely open to man in the middle attacks
[12:53:50] <Eluvatar> This is why I will repeat this advice:
[12:53:59] <Eluvatar> If you're writing a new NS service, do not use the NS Auth API
[12:54:14] <Eluvatar> If you're an NS++ user, do not use the NS Auth API for anything but an NS++ service
[12:54:33] <QuietDad> I really don't have extensive knowledge of the NS API, but isn't it only read only?
[12:54:55] <Eluvatar> (that's http://www.nationstates.net/page=verify_login )
[12:55:05] <Eluvatar> QuietDad, everything but the telegram sending API is read only
[12:55:39] <Eluvatar> the problem is that that verify_login page, combined with the auth API to check its tokens, is not secure against man-in-the-middle
[12:55:56] <hobbes> FYI guys, you are all open mic
[12:55:56] <Eluvatar> I'm sure there are plans in the works to fix this
[12:56:05] <hobbes> I believe violet has discussed it in the past
[12:56:30] <QuietDad> It just seems that it's limited. There are several instances of people taking the daily dumps and loading their own databases to get what they want how they want it
[12:57:23] <Eluvatar> There's a reason the daily dumps are made available
[12:57:37] <Eluvatar> It's definitely much higher bandwidth than the API
[12:59:41] <hobbes> mhm
[13:00:13] <QuietDad> I tried to look at it a while back to write a simple routine to generate a table of all the nations I had endorsed AND all the nations that had endorsed me and give me a list of who I hadn't cross endorsed and qho hadn't returned the endos I had given and didnt feel like having to load a data dumpevery day to keep it current
[13:00:55] <Eluvatar> the dumps do not contain endorsement information
[13:01:27] <Eluvatar> It used to be necessary to obtain the list of WA nations from the daily dumps: I have http://www.thenorthpacific.org/api/ from that age
[13:01:41] <QuietDad> But it does show who is endorsed to who and a simple outer join gives me what I need to knwo
[13:01:43] <QuietDad> know
[13:01:54] <Eluvatar> (The region_name.txt files are updated nightly with the list of WAs in the region at the major update)
[13:02:46] <Eluvatar> as far as I know, neither nations.xml nor regions.xml contain any endorsement information at all
[13:02:55] <Eluvatar> not even the nations endorsing the given nation
[13:03:21] <Eluvatar> that can only be obtained through the 'live' API as far as I know
[13:03:34] <Eluvatar> And I just double checked
[13:03:52] <QuietDad> It's been a long time since I was looking at it and dont remember, but there was a way to get a nation and all the nations it had endorsed
[13:03:58] <Eluvatar> Yes, through the live API
[13:04:14] <Eluvatar> i.e. http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/api ... _bonaparte
[13:04:31] <Eluvatar> -> <NATION id="pauline_bonaparte"><ENDORSEMENTS>ss_longclaw,arugula_supreme,samoupravljanje,the_doctor_in_the_tardis,yalia,james_brown,-suntzu-,harpatezlomnelea,motion_and_stillness,tranquil_winds,slamtopia,tannenmille,clone_wars,cervelat_salami,soviet_canuckistan,omnipotent_thomas,ainin_x,crosseye_jack,sweet_pestilence,oitseasetei,oton_atcel,patent_troll,club_stoic,51st_highlanders,tnoeser,1903_a_new_century,the_uss_kildonan,crusader_ii,gerfwe,obbanstantz</ENDORSEMENTS></NATION>
[13:04:51] <QuietDad> Loike I said. It's been a while
[13:05:03] <hobbes> I've always been too lazy
[13:05:08] <hobbes> to fuck with api
[13:05:20] <Eluvatar> jackiechan.gif
[13:05:27] <hobbes> ^
[13:05:34] <QuietDad> Same here. eventually it gets to be more of an effort than the info it would produse
[13:05:44] *** Joins: Ballotonia
[13:05:48] *** Eluvatar sets mode: +o Ballotonia
[13:05:54] <Eluvatar> We were just talking about the APi
[13:05:57] <hobbes> admin sighting
[13:05:58] <hobbes> hide the booze
[13:06:02] <hobbes> and hacks
[13:06:09] <Eluvatar> and thanks by the by for adding the list-of-nations-in-the-WA API
[13:06:23] <Ballotonia> What if I WANT some booze?
[13:06:55] <QuietDad> I was going to make a WAMP server to load with the dumps and interface with the API, but I gave it to someone to help heat my house with
[13:06:57] <Eluvatar> Well then I'll just have to get some harpoon UFO for you
[13:07:19] <Eluvatar> WAMP = wrong
[13:07:22] <Eluvatar> <_<
[13:07:58] <Eluvatar> The most lengthy API discussion however was about security and the Auth API
[13:08:07] <hobbes> fyi, people with no voice
[13:08:11] <hobbes> round table, you're free to talk
[13:08:19] <QuietDad> I usually do Centos LAMP servers, but in this case Wamp was easier. and WAMP is just to get it loaded then play with it for real
[13:09:54] <QuietDad> And any of the LAMP/WAMP distros have their limitations. Most are designed to work on a desktop and not host sites
[13:10:08] <Eluvatar> Well our discussion of the API seems to have died down
[13:10:15] <Eluvatar> No questions from the audience, it seems.
[13:10:30] <Eluvatar> The next item on hobbes agenda was "Bots: Wat they do, and how they do it"
Spoiler: click to toggle
[13:10:40] *** Joins: FriarTuck
[13:10:46] <Eluvatar> I suppose one can demonstrate.
[13:10:58] <Chasmanthe> FriarTuck!
[13:10:58] <FriarTuck> Chasmanthe!
[13:11:21] <Eluvatar> I don't think IRC bots have been used much with NS before 2011, at least not for NS things
[13:11:21] <QuietDad> .approx The_south_pacific
[13:11:22] <FriarTuck> QuietDad: Approximation: 00:21:06
[13:11:37] <Eluvatar> (I think the NPO had a bot that helped moderate their channel back in 2007)
[13:12:06] <Eluvatar> Right, interestingly Ballotonia suggested the change to that approximation command that made it most useful, in the long run at least
[13:12:28] <QuietDad> The limitions of IP checking in NS limits bots effectiveness, especially when WA nations get involved
[13:12:32] <Eluvatar> (Recomputing the speed to expect based on the last update)
[13:12:52] <Eluvatar> I.. I think the agenda item is IRC bots, not automated nations
[13:13:18] * hobbes edits irc infront of bots
[13:13:22] <Eluvatar> though automated nations are definitely a thing people legitimately do, to keep alive, answer issues, and/or receive telegrams
[13:13:31] <Eluvatar> +on their puppets
[13:13:50] <QuietDad> I had a few gameroom IRC bots back when Escade was MoRA that were used
[13:14:02] <Eluvatar> That'd be 2013?
[13:14:20] <QuietDad> Somewhere around then
[13:15:05] <QuietDad> I go back a long time with Mirc and bots and macros
[13:15:56] <Eluvatar> For those of you that can run perl scripts, http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p12850010 may be helpful in that regard
[13:16:03] <QuietDad> Need a seperate instance of an IRC client to run bots in. Trying to run bots AND chat in a room is annoying
[13:16:19] <Eluvatar> at least as a starting point of keeping nations alive and letting you know if they have telegrams. (Though finding out a nation has telegrams can be done via the private RSS feeds)
[13:16:26] <Ballotonia> Elu: even before I became Admin it was clear that the server was ever running more smoothly, and that the update was hence beconming more and more predictable. Main variance is the server load, which is why some artificial variance was added eventually. Right now no bot can provide 100% certainty when predicting.
[13:16:47] <Eluvatar> Thank you for adding that variance, by the by
[13:17:32] <QuietDad> .me forgets if Perl was installed on WOPR
[13:17:40] <Eluvatar> And yes we've certainly come a long way from this: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... s#p8387454 with the server upgrade(s)
[13:17:44] <Starrie> I don't think i understand, how is update time predicted?
[13:17:50] <Eluvatar> er, ignore that hilit=gnomes
[13:17:58] <Sev> lol
[13:18:11] <Eluvatar> Starrie, basically we know the order regions update in - it's the order they're listed in the daily dump xml files
[13:18:39] <Eluvatar> We have also found that most of the time, the update takes about the same amount of time per nation that update
[13:18:49] <Eluvatar> (not exactly the same amount of time, of course)
[13:19:01] <hobbes> it depends on update
[13:19:05] <Eluvatar> The two pieces of information combined mean that we can predict roughly when a region will update pretty well.
[13:19:07] <Sev> seconds/nations
[13:19:07] <hobbes> not update, on source***
[13:19:18] <hobbes> Most use the aforementioned counting method
[13:19:34] <QuietDad> Give them the real answer. It's magic.
[13:19:36] <hobbes> hwoever, NS++ (and Serina) pyschically counted the time that nations in the region updated each day
[13:19:48] <Eluvatar> Before the daily dumps ordering was understood, people used the time of previous update events
[13:19:51] <hobbes> I say did because they've both fallen into disrepair and are less then accurate now
[13:20:04] <Eluvatar> NS++ has the problem of not accounting for daylight savings
[13:20:08] <Eluvatar> which I should probably fix
[13:20:18] <hobbes> Afforess did the ghettoway
[13:20:22] <Starrie> ah ok. does the update still take around the three hours shown in the graph in ballo's thread? http://oi43.tinypic.com/339m73k.jpg
[13:20:24] <hobbes> just purged the database when daylight savings happened
[13:20:29] <hobbes> took a few days to get shit back but it worked
[13:20:32] <Eluvatar> No, Starrie, it takes about an hour now
[13:20:40] <Starrie> oh ok
[13:20:41] <Starrie> thanks
[13:20:45] <Eluvatar> That's why I'm definitely agreeing the server is running more smoothly now
[13:20:45] <QuietDad> ns++ giving +/- 2343254 seconds is an issue too
[13:20:51] <Eluvatar> .approx radioactive desert
[13:20:52] <FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Approximation: 01:05:32
[13:21:01] <Eluvatar> (that's the last region to update right now)
[13:22:23] * QuietDad finds DDr2 memory to finish WOPR's twin brother
[13:22:23] <Eluvatar> I imagine it's on the order of 3600 seconds
[13:22:28] <ANewCentury> radioactivityy
[13:22:31] <Eluvatar> for the aforementioned reason of ignoring daylight savings
[13:23:08] <QuietDad> So your saying NS++ woile be accurate if you add an hour to it?
[13:23:16] <QuietDad> would be
[13:23:30] <Eluvatar> The problem is NS++ is combining pre-daylight savings and post-daylight savings times together
[13:23:38] <Eluvatar> and treating them as though there's no such thing as daylight savings
[13:23:54] <Eluvatar> So no, your mileage will definitely vary
[13:24:45] <Starrie> to be clear, all the nations in a region update as that region is updated?
[13:24:49] <Eluvatar> Yes
[13:24:55] <Eluvatar> in the order they arrived in the region, actually
[13:25:12] <Starrie> i see
[13:25:17] <Eluvatar> i.e. http://www.nationstates.net/page=list_n ... =residency
[13:25:27] <Eluvatar> Steatopygian will be the first nation to update in the region Taijitu
[13:25:41] <Eluvatar> and Letonna will be the last (currently)
[13:26:05] <Ballotonia> The order they (last) arrived: length of non-interrupted residency. It's one of the sorting methods when listing nations in a region: https://www.nationstates.net/page=list_ ... =residency
[13:26:21] <hobbes> mhm
[13:26:22] <Eluvatar> Right
[13:26:48] <Eluvatar> Any rumors that when we served together in the UDL we quantum entangled our brains are entirely false
[13:26:57] <Sev> lol
[13:27:34] <ANewCentury> Is there any point in being first to update or last?
[13:27:38] <Eluvatar> The residency order is also the order that the API will give you a list of natiosn in a region in
[13:27:41] <Eluvatar> Yes
[13:27:51] <Eluvatar> One wants regions that update late for tactical purposes
[13:28:01] <Eluvatar> One can want to update early to get higher rankings
[13:28:09] <ANewCentury> what's the first region?
[13:28:13] <Eluvatar> Because the NS rankings have ties broken by whoever's updated first
[13:28:52] <Sev> World Federation of Democratic Youth
[13:28:52] <Ballotonia> Current first region: World Federation of Democratic Youth
[13:28:53] <Eluvatar> .approx world federation of democratic youth
[13:28:54] <FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Approximation: 00:00:00
[13:28:54] <Sev> last I looked
[13:28:59] <Sev> lol
[13:29:02] <Eluvatar> Sev was never UDL btw
[13:29:18] <Sev> No, I wasn't.
[13:29:30] <Sev> I was many things, but never UDL.
[13:29:49] <Starrie> so what is the purpose of the artificial variance on the update time?
[13:29:59] <Eluvatar> To keep people from predicting it too accurately
[13:30:23] <Eluvatar> so that there will generally be some time between when a nation enters a region and that region updating
[13:30:39] <Eluvatar> so that there will generally be at least /some/ opportunity to react
[13:31:05] <Eluvatar> oh Ballotonia there's 20 mismatches between the WA membership list and actual WA membership
[13:31:08] <Starrie> oh ok, about how much is that time?
[13:31:14] <Eluvatar> I'll go post about it in the API topic
[13:31:45] <Ballotonia> Elu: I blame the mods
[13:32:06] <Eluvatar> yeah WA ejection often has something to do with it.
[13:32:33] <Eluvatar> not sure how that applies to school nations that aren't listed as WA members
[13:32:50] <Eluvatar> but that's less of a problem
[13:32:56] <Eluvatar> doesn't break gameplay scripts at least XD
[13:33:51] <Eluvatar> But http://www.nationstates.net/page=list_n ... start=7500 is kind of funky looking
[13:34:26] <Eluvatar> (Lunatina)
[13:34:34] <Ballotonia> Starrie: variance... varries That's the point. How much time there is between the guess and the actual update depends on the guess: how close the guesser makes the call (being pushed by others trying to interfere), and randomness.
[13:35:03] <Eluvatar> It's generally "a few seconds"
[13:35:17] <Starrie> thanks!
[13:35:18] <Eluvatar> and take that with a spoonful of salt
[13:10:46] <Eluvatar> I suppose one can demonstrate.
[13:10:58] <Chasmanthe> FriarTuck!
[13:10:58] <FriarTuck> Chasmanthe!
[13:11:21] <Eluvatar> I don't think IRC bots have been used much with NS before 2011, at least not for NS things
[13:11:21] <QuietDad> .approx The_south_pacific
[13:11:22] <FriarTuck> QuietDad: Approximation: 00:21:06
[13:11:37] <Eluvatar> (I think the NPO had a bot that helped moderate their channel back in 2007)
[13:12:06] <Eluvatar> Right, interestingly Ballotonia suggested the change to that approximation command that made it most useful, in the long run at least
[13:12:28] <QuietDad> The limitions of IP checking in NS limits bots effectiveness, especially when WA nations get involved
[13:12:32] <Eluvatar> (Recomputing the speed to expect based on the last update)
[13:12:52] <Eluvatar> I.. I think the agenda item is IRC bots, not automated nations
[13:13:18] * hobbes edits irc infront of bots
[13:13:22] <Eluvatar> though automated nations are definitely a thing people legitimately do, to keep alive, answer issues, and/or receive telegrams
[13:13:31] <Eluvatar> +on their puppets
[13:13:50] <QuietDad> I had a few gameroom IRC bots back when Escade was MoRA that were used
[13:14:02] <Eluvatar> That'd be 2013?
[13:14:20] <QuietDad> Somewhere around then
[13:15:05] <QuietDad> I go back a long time with Mirc and bots and macros
[13:15:56] <Eluvatar> For those of you that can run perl scripts, http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p12850010 may be helpful in that regard
[13:16:03] <QuietDad> Need a seperate instance of an IRC client to run bots in. Trying to run bots AND chat in a room is annoying
[13:16:19] <Eluvatar> at least as a starting point of keeping nations alive and letting you know if they have telegrams. (Though finding out a nation has telegrams can be done via the private RSS feeds)
[13:16:26] <Ballotonia> Elu: even before I became Admin it was clear that the server was ever running more smoothly, and that the update was hence beconming more and more predictable. Main variance is the server load, which is why some artificial variance was added eventually. Right now no bot can provide 100% certainty when predicting.
[13:16:47] <Eluvatar> Thank you for adding that variance, by the by
[13:17:32] <QuietDad> .me forgets if Perl was installed on WOPR
[13:17:40] <Eluvatar> And yes we've certainly come a long way from this: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... s#p8387454 with the server upgrade(s)
[13:17:44] <Starrie> I don't think i understand, how is update time predicted?
[13:17:50] <Eluvatar> er, ignore that hilit=gnomes
[13:17:58] <Sev> lol
[13:18:11] <Eluvatar> Starrie, basically we know the order regions update in - it's the order they're listed in the daily dump xml files
[13:18:39] <Eluvatar> We have also found that most of the time, the update takes about the same amount of time per nation that update
[13:18:49] <Eluvatar> (not exactly the same amount of time, of course)
[13:19:01] <hobbes> it depends on update
[13:19:05] <Eluvatar> The two pieces of information combined mean that we can predict roughly when a region will update pretty well.
[13:19:07] <Sev> seconds/nations
[13:19:07] <hobbes> not update, on source***
[13:19:18] <hobbes> Most use the aforementioned counting method
[13:19:34] <QuietDad> Give them the real answer. It's magic.
[13:19:36] <hobbes> hwoever, NS++ (and Serina) pyschically counted the time that nations in the region updated each day
[13:19:48] <Eluvatar> Before the daily dumps ordering was understood, people used the time of previous update events
[13:19:51] <hobbes> I say did because they've both fallen into disrepair and are less then accurate now
[13:20:04] <Eluvatar> NS++ has the problem of not accounting for daylight savings
[13:20:08] <Eluvatar> which I should probably fix
[13:20:18] <hobbes> Afforess did the ghettoway
[13:20:22] <Starrie> ah ok. does the update still take around the three hours shown in the graph in ballo's thread? http://oi43.tinypic.com/339m73k.jpg
[13:20:24] <hobbes> just purged the database when daylight savings happened
[13:20:29] <hobbes> took a few days to get shit back but it worked
[13:20:32] <Eluvatar> No, Starrie, it takes about an hour now
[13:20:40] <Starrie> oh ok
[13:20:41] <Starrie> thanks
[13:20:45] <Eluvatar> That's why I'm definitely agreeing the server is running more smoothly now
[13:20:45] <QuietDad> ns++ giving +/- 2343254 seconds is an issue too
[13:20:51] <Eluvatar> .approx radioactive desert
[13:20:52] <FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Approximation: 01:05:32
[13:21:01] <Eluvatar> (that's the last region to update right now)
[13:22:23] * QuietDad finds DDr2 memory to finish WOPR's twin brother
[13:22:23] <Eluvatar> I imagine it's on the order of 3600 seconds
[13:22:28] <ANewCentury> radioactivityy
[13:22:31] <Eluvatar> for the aforementioned reason of ignoring daylight savings
[13:23:08] <QuietDad> So your saying NS++ woile be accurate if you add an hour to it?
[13:23:16] <QuietDad> would be
[13:23:30] <Eluvatar> The problem is NS++ is combining pre-daylight savings and post-daylight savings times together
[13:23:38] <Eluvatar> and treating them as though there's no such thing as daylight savings
[13:23:54] <Eluvatar> So no, your mileage will definitely vary
[13:24:45] <Starrie> to be clear, all the nations in a region update as that region is updated?
[13:24:49] <Eluvatar> Yes
[13:24:55] <Eluvatar> in the order they arrived in the region, actually
[13:25:12] <Starrie> i see
[13:25:17] <Eluvatar> i.e. http://www.nationstates.net/page=list_n ... =residency
[13:25:27] <Eluvatar> Steatopygian will be the first nation to update in the region Taijitu
[13:25:41] <Eluvatar> and Letonna will be the last (currently)
[13:26:05] <Ballotonia> The order they (last) arrived: length of non-interrupted residency. It's one of the sorting methods when listing nations in a region: https://www.nationstates.net/page=list_ ... =residency
[13:26:21] <hobbes> mhm
[13:26:22] <Eluvatar> Right
[13:26:48] <Eluvatar> Any rumors that when we served together in the UDL we quantum entangled our brains are entirely false
[13:26:57] <Sev> lol
[13:27:34] <ANewCentury> Is there any point in being first to update or last?
[13:27:38] <Eluvatar> The residency order is also the order that the API will give you a list of natiosn in a region in
[13:27:41] <Eluvatar> Yes
[13:27:51] <Eluvatar> One wants regions that update late for tactical purposes
[13:28:01] <Eluvatar> One can want to update early to get higher rankings
[13:28:09] <ANewCentury> what's the first region?
[13:28:13] <Eluvatar> Because the NS rankings have ties broken by whoever's updated first
[13:28:52] <Sev> World Federation of Democratic Youth
[13:28:52] <Ballotonia> Current first region: World Federation of Democratic Youth
[13:28:53] <Eluvatar> .approx world federation of democratic youth
[13:28:54] <FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Approximation: 00:00:00
[13:28:54] <Sev> last I looked
[13:28:59] <Sev> lol
[13:29:02] <Eluvatar> Sev was never UDL btw
[13:29:18] <Sev> No, I wasn't.
[13:29:30] <Sev> I was many things, but never UDL.
[13:29:49] <Starrie> so what is the purpose of the artificial variance on the update time?
[13:29:59] <Eluvatar> To keep people from predicting it too accurately
[13:30:23] <Eluvatar> so that there will generally be some time between when a nation enters a region and that region updating
[13:30:39] <Eluvatar> so that there will generally be at least /some/ opportunity to react
[13:31:05] <Eluvatar> oh Ballotonia there's 20 mismatches between the WA membership list and actual WA membership
[13:31:08] <Starrie> oh ok, about how much is that time?
[13:31:14] <Eluvatar> I'll go post about it in the API topic
[13:31:45] <Ballotonia> Elu: I blame the mods
[13:32:06] <Eluvatar> yeah WA ejection often has something to do with it.
[13:32:33] <Eluvatar> not sure how that applies to school nations that aren't listed as WA members
[13:32:50] <Eluvatar> but that's less of a problem
[13:32:56] <Eluvatar> doesn't break gameplay scripts at least XD
[13:33:51] <Eluvatar> But http://www.nationstates.net/page=list_n ... start=7500 is kind of funky looking
[13:34:26] <Eluvatar> (Lunatina)
[13:34:34] <Ballotonia> Starrie: variance... varries
That's the point. How much time there is between the guess and the actual update depends on the guess: how close the guesser makes the call (being pushed by others trying to interfere), and randomness.[13:35:03] <Eluvatar> It's generally "a few seconds"
[13:35:17] <Starrie> thanks!
[13:35:18] <Eluvatar> and take that with a spoonful of salt
Spoiler: click to toggle
[13:35:23] <Jeck> Hola!
[13:35:47] <Eluvatar> Since we ended up talking about predicting the update instead of bots in general
[13:35:57] <Eluvatar> (and don't have much to say about IRC bots in general)
[13:36:02] <Eluvatar> I guess we can continue to "Social Engerring / Your s00per secret data probably isn't safe...SPAIS"
[13:36:23] <Eluvatar> thanks again for the sophisticated enciphering of the agenda hobbes so that only we can understand it
[13:36:43] <Eluvatar> I'm not sure which aspect of things you intended for discussion actually
[13:36:54] <Eluvatar> Certainly social engineering is the #1 existential risk to offsite forums
[13:37:17] <Eluvatar> -- do not give untrustworthy people admin powers, everyone!
[13:37:40] <ANewCentury> who is trustworthy here
[13:37:53] <Eluvatar> Trust me, 'cause I said so
[13:38:18] * Jeck boots Eluvatar into the sun
[13:38:41] <Eluvatar> That's not very nice.
[13:39:06] <Eluvatar> I'd actually also suggest not using the same password across multiple offsite forums
[13:39:16] <Jeck> I'm not very nice
[13:39:18] <Eluvatar> even forums that aren't hosted by players
[13:39:32] <Jeck> I never use the same password for anything
[13:39:36] <Eluvatar> Good
[13:39:43] <Jeck> Apart from stuff I don't give a crap about
[13:40:19] <Eluvatar> Thankfully we've not had /many/ incidents of offsite administrators abusing their powers
[13:40:30] <Ballotonia> Nations which are 'stolen' are typically taken over by someone who received the password from the owner through Nation Sharing. Which is one of the reasons we advise against doing that.
[13:40:37] <Eluvatar> (unless one considers sharing IP addresses with the administrators of other forums abuse)
[13:40:57] <Eluvatar> Indeed
[13:42:20] <Eluvatar> From another perspective, hobbes' elliptical agenda item could refer to actual gameplay Espionage
[13:42:32] <Eluvatar> which has often been a concern, but generally not a technical one
[13:42:47] <Eluvatar> Except obviously for trying to catch such spies through IP address matching.
[13:43:27] <Eluvatar> "Ignorance really is bliss: How misconceptions of the general public can/will derail entire projects."
[13:43:29] <NorthernSunrise> I tend to have a couple of passwords I use with more frequently. Every now and then, I switch them around.
[13:43:34] <Eluvatar> Really going to have to ask hobbes to explain that one
[13:43:47] <NorthernSunrise> Had to come up with a new one for the Fair's forums just because I felt like coming up with a new one, though.
[13:43:50] <Eluvatar> NorthernSunrise, that's probably a bit risky. I'd earnestly recommend a password management system.
[13:44:26] <Raven|afk> I tend to use two factor authentication on the major sites I use where possible.
[13:44:42] <NorthernSunrise> It's like, eight passwords. They're all pretty different from each other and easy to remember.
[13:45:04] <Eluvatar> I mean NorthernSunrise that an attacker knowing 1/8th of your passwords can be a problem for you
[13:45:05] <NorthernSunrise> Beats using names of countries in Portuguese, anyways
[13:45:17] <Eluvatar> and that if you rotate the passwords, then an attacker could end up knowing more
[13:45:37] <NorthernSunrise> Ah, now I get it.
[13:45:37] <Eluvatar> for any site which you don't trust implicitly, I would really advise using a unique password if you can
[13:45:46] <NorthernSunrise> Never really had problems with passwords, though. =P
[13:46:01] <NorthernSunrise> I think the one time I thought it was a bit risky was back when NS+ started being a thing
[13:46:03] <Eluvatar> (And this is implicit trust not only not to screw with you deliberately, but also not to fail to keep your data secure from others)
[13:46:26] <Eluvatar> NS++ is not written to obtain your password, but like any browser extension it /could/ if it were so written.
[13:46:54] <Eluvatar> And obviously if you use the NS++ puppet manager, those puppets' passwords will be saved in your browser.
[13:47:01] <NorthernSunrise> True, but some people were scared, so yeah. Even thought it didn't, one could be at least some sort of worried about it.
[13:47:14] <Eluvatar> It's an appropriate concern.
[13:47:44] <Ballotonia> For that reason, I never used NS++.
[13:48:03] <Eluvatar> I'm still avoiding using NS++ on certain nations of mine, and I (co-)operate the darned thing
[13:48:32] <Eluvatar> (i.e. "Eluvatar")
[13:48:45] <Eluvatar> I may be abnormally security-conscious
[13:49:07] <Eluvatar> I suppose that "Ignorance really is bliss: How misconceptions of the general public can/will derail entire projects." item may refer to NS++
[13:49:41] <Eluvatar> But I don't think it's accurate -- the project seems not to have been derailed by misconceptions
[13:49:54] <Eluvatar> might it refer to NationNet?
[13:50:02] * Eluvatar shrugs
[13:50:06] <Eluvatar> might as well move on... to Rift!
[13:50:41] <Sev> When Dark Rift gets a small cleanup, it'll be amazing
[13:50:42] <Eluvatar> First of all, Ballotonia do you have any idea what [violet] was thinking when [violet] came up with the name?
[13:50:57] <Eluvatar> NS++ does not work with dark rift at the moment, full stop, this should be fixable fairly easily of course.
[13:51:05] <NorthernSunrise> So, next lecture's the one about Hosting, right?
[13:51:42] <Sev> What's NS++?
[13:51:49] <Eluvatar> ACcording to the schedule the next lecture is "Regional Romance: Embassies as a Social Network" by Starrie
[13:51:50] <Sev> jokes
[13:52:52] <Ballotonia> Elu: no idea about the naming. (btw, fixed the API items you posted about)
[13:52:55] <NorthernSunrise> Ah, yeah, my bad.
[13:52:57] <Eluvatar> awesome
[13:53:30] <NorthernSunrise> I forget my time fuse's like three hours after or something.
[13:53:48] <Eluvatar> Well, not the Activity page bug But that may be harder to fix than a few slightly corrupted nations
[13:54:32] <Eluvatar> I've seen some interesting constructive criticism of the visual design of the Rift theme
[13:55:01] <Eluvatar> Some have also complained about Notices sometimes being redundant with the indicators on Issues and Telegrams
[13:55:23] <Eluvatar> But I actually think it's quite nice on the whole
[13:56:36] <Eluvatar> Some of the complaints I've heard are sillier than others though:
[13:56:54] <Eluvatar> Like a complaint that the link to your nation is in a different place in the HTML now
[13:57:02] <Eluvatar> well, in the visual laid out page, rather
[13:35:47] <Eluvatar> Since we ended up talking about predicting the update instead of bots in general
[13:35:57] <Eluvatar> (and don't have much to say about IRC bots in general)
[13:36:02] <Eluvatar> I guess we can continue to "Social Engerring / Your s00per secret data probably isn't safe...SPAIS"
[13:36:23] <Eluvatar> thanks again for the sophisticated enciphering of the agenda hobbes so that only we can understand it
[13:36:43] <Eluvatar> I'm not sure which aspect of things you intended for discussion actually
[13:36:54] <Eluvatar> Certainly social engineering is the #1 existential risk to offsite forums
[13:37:17] <Eluvatar> -- do not give untrustworthy people admin powers, everyone!
[13:37:40] <ANewCentury> who is trustworthy here
[13:37:53] <Eluvatar> Trust me, 'cause I said so
[13:38:18] * Jeck boots Eluvatar into the sun
[13:38:41] <Eluvatar> That's not very nice.
[13:39:06] <Eluvatar> I'd actually also suggest not using the same password across multiple offsite forums
[13:39:16] <Jeck> I'm not very nice
[13:39:18] <Eluvatar> even forums that aren't hosted by players
[13:39:32] <Jeck> I never use the same password for anything
[13:39:36] <Eluvatar> Good
[13:39:43] <Jeck> Apart from stuff I don't give a crap about
[13:40:19] <Eluvatar> Thankfully we've not had /many/ incidents of offsite administrators abusing their powers
[13:40:30] <Ballotonia> Nations which are 'stolen' are typically taken over by someone who received the password from the owner through Nation Sharing. Which is one of the reasons we advise against doing that.
[13:40:37] <Eluvatar> (unless one considers sharing IP addresses with the administrators of other forums abuse)
[13:40:57] <Eluvatar> Indeed
[13:42:20] <Eluvatar> From another perspective, hobbes' elliptical agenda item could refer to actual gameplay Espionage
[13:42:32] <Eluvatar> which has often been a concern, but generally not a technical one
[13:42:47] <Eluvatar> Except obviously for trying to catch such spies through IP address matching.
[13:43:27] <Eluvatar> "Ignorance really is bliss: How misconceptions of the general public can/will derail entire projects."
[13:43:29] <NorthernSunrise> I tend to have a couple of passwords I use with more frequently. Every now and then, I switch them around.
[13:43:34] <Eluvatar> Really going to have to ask hobbes to explain that one
[13:43:47] <NorthernSunrise> Had to come up with a new one for the Fair's forums just because I felt like coming up with a new one, though.
[13:43:50] <Eluvatar> NorthernSunrise, that's probably a bit risky. I'd earnestly recommend a password management system.
[13:44:26] <Raven|afk> I tend to use two factor authentication on the major sites I use where possible.
[13:44:42] <NorthernSunrise> It's like, eight passwords. They're all pretty different from each other and easy to remember.
[13:45:04] <Eluvatar> I mean NorthernSunrise that an attacker knowing 1/8th of your passwords can be a problem for you
[13:45:05] <NorthernSunrise> Beats using names of countries in Portuguese, anyways
[13:45:17] <Eluvatar> and that if you rotate the passwords, then an attacker could end up knowing more
[13:45:37] <NorthernSunrise> Ah, now I get it.
[13:45:37] <Eluvatar> for any site which you don't trust implicitly, I would really advise using a unique password if you can
[13:45:46] <NorthernSunrise> Never really had problems with passwords, though. =P
[13:46:01] <NorthernSunrise> I think the one time I thought it was a bit risky was back when NS+ started being a thing
[13:46:03] <Eluvatar> (And this is implicit trust not only not to screw with you deliberately, but also not to fail to keep your data secure from others)
[13:46:26] <Eluvatar> NS++ is not written to obtain your password, but like any browser extension it /could/ if it were so written.
[13:46:54] <Eluvatar> And obviously if you use the NS++ puppet manager, those puppets' passwords will be saved in your browser.
[13:47:01] <NorthernSunrise> True, but some people were scared, so yeah. Even thought it didn't, one could be at least some sort of worried about it.
[13:47:14] <Eluvatar> It's an appropriate concern.
[13:47:44] <Ballotonia> For that reason, I never used NS++.
[13:48:03] <Eluvatar> I'm still avoiding using NS++ on certain nations of mine, and I (co-)operate the darned thing
[13:48:32] <Eluvatar> (i.e. "Eluvatar")
[13:48:45] <Eluvatar> I may be abnormally security-conscious
[13:49:07] <Eluvatar> I suppose that "Ignorance really is bliss: How misconceptions of the general public can/will derail entire projects." item may refer to NS++
[13:49:41] <Eluvatar> But I don't think it's accurate -- the project seems not to have been derailed by misconceptions
[13:49:54] <Eluvatar> might it refer to NationNet?
[13:50:02] * Eluvatar shrugs
[13:50:06] <Eluvatar> might as well move on... to Rift!
[13:50:41] <Sev> When Dark Rift gets a small cleanup, it'll be amazing
[13:50:42] <Eluvatar> First of all, Ballotonia do you have any idea what [violet] was thinking when [violet] came up with the name?
[13:50:57] <Eluvatar> NS++ does not work with dark rift at the moment, full stop, this should be fixable fairly easily of course.
[13:51:05] <NorthernSunrise> So, next lecture's the one about Hosting, right?
[13:51:42] <Sev> What's NS++?
[13:51:49] <Eluvatar> ACcording to the schedule the next lecture is "Regional Romance: Embassies as a Social Network" by Starrie
[13:51:50] <Sev> jokes
[13:52:52] <Ballotonia> Elu: no idea about the naming. (btw, fixed the API items you posted about)
[13:52:55] <NorthernSunrise> Ah, yeah, my bad.
[13:52:57] <Eluvatar> awesome
[13:53:30] <NorthernSunrise> I forget my time fuse's like three hours after or something.
[13:53:48] <Eluvatar> Well, not the Activity page bug
But that may be harder to fix than a few slightly corrupted nations[13:54:32] <Eluvatar> I've seen some interesting constructive criticism of the visual design of the Rift theme
[13:55:01] <Eluvatar> Some have also complained about Notices sometimes being redundant with the indicators on Issues and Telegrams
[13:55:23] <Eluvatar> But I actually think it's quite nice on the whole
[13:56:36] <Eluvatar> Some of the complaints I've heard are sillier than others though:
[13:56:54] <Eluvatar> Like a complaint that the link to your nation is in a different place in the HTML now
[13:57:02] <Eluvatar> well, in the visual laid out page, rather
Spoiler: click to toggle
[13:57:42] <Eluvatar> In any case, I don't think much of the audience has much to say about Rift
[13:58:17] <Eluvatar> The last actual item hobbes left us was "Idea --> Software --> ??? ---> Profit" which I imagine to be a suggestion to discuss the development cycle
[13:58:32] <Eluvatar> but NS tools and such tend not to have the normal development cycle
[13:58:44] <Eluvatar> certainly nobody's paid me for any NS tools (unlike JAL)
[13:59:51] <Eluvatar> I think I'll solicit some questions to close.
[14:00:15] <Eluvatar> Unibot, any questions or thoughts you'd like us to talk about?
[14:00:24] <Eluvatar> (Or anyone else, don't be shy )
[14:01:54] <Starrie> has the way update time changed as suggested by this post? http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p16342806 or are regions still updated in order?
[14:02:22] <Eluvatar> I think that if that change were implemented, we'd have been told.
[14:02:35] <Sev> And we'd have noticed
[14:02:40] <Starrie> so that is just what's planned?
[14:02:42] <Ballotonia> That has not been implemented yet, though I should state that when it does the general order will be maintained as is.
[14:02:47] <Starrie> ok
[14:02:57] <Eluvatar> Sev is also correct
[14:03:11] <Eluvatar> We'd definitely have noticed regions updating out of order.
[14:03:26] <Eluvatar> (or nations, for that matter)
[14:03:29] <Ballotonia> How would you notice that? XML order will remain as is.
[14:03:40] <Eluvatar> The order in which happenings happen?
[14:03:46] <Ballotonia> Of course, I'll notify when that code goes live.
[14:04:09] <Eluvatar> and/or the way ties are broken, though if the xml order remains the same perhaps that will remain the same as well
[14:05:31] <Eluvatar> I'm certainly looking forward to Delegate-elect
[14:05:37] <Ballotonia> Ties in the rankings will see minor fluctuations, that's true.
[14:05:46] <NorthernSunrise> Ey, Unibot, you there?
[14:05:53] <Ananke> Do you think that using scripts to gather various kind of information makes regions more successful?
[14:06:12] <Eluvatar> Yes, it definitely helps
[14:06:27] <Eluvatar> It reduces the amount of time people spend on boring and repetitive information gathering tasks
[14:06:44] <Eluvatar> which not only leaves them more time for other things, it also reduces their frustration
[14:08:40] <Eluvatar> Regarding recruitment systems, one need only review the histories of the Commonwealth, Taijitu, and/or Gatesville and other large regions back in the day
[14:09:08] <Ananke> Some of us rather enjoy recruiting the oldfashioned way.
[14:09:15] <Eluvatar> Improved coordination of recruitment, and improved coverage of new nations, both definitely helped
[14:09:26] <Eluvatar> Ananke, by watching the feeders for nations being founded live?
[14:09:48] <Ananke> Nah, not that oldfashioned.
[14:10:05] <Eluvatar> I always found it frustrating to 'claim' feeders and report when one was 'done' with them with that approach, etc
[14:10:53] <Eluvatar> Taijitu's old Toaster systems would find nations to contact for you, but would not send for you (obviously <_< )
[14:11:10] <Eluvatar> I've definitely heard rumors that there were regions from time to time not respecting that fine line
[14:11:23] <Ananke> yeah, that's how it worked in 10ki too.
[14:11:38] <Eluvatar> and I'm sure it helped 10KI get to 2000 nations
[14:11:54] <Eluvatar> Which is rather farther than Taijitu ever got, even
[14:11:57] <Eluvatar> (1400ish)
[14:12:21] <Eluvatar> er, 1350ish?
[14:13:26] <Eluvatar> More questions mayhaps?
[14:14:58] <Eluvatar> Seeing none, I move to adjourn
[14:15:08] <Eluvatar> (And let me eat )
[14:15:17] <Ananke> Thanks for the talk, Elu.
[14:16:01] <Eluvatar> Please feel free to use this room in the remaining hour 44 minutes before Starrie's talk
[14:16:23] <Ballotonia> Thanks for chairing, Elu.
[14:16:42] <Sev> Thanks for Balloting, Ballotonia
[13:58:17] <Eluvatar> The last actual item hobbes left us was "Idea --> Software --> ??? ---> Profit" which I imagine to be a suggestion to discuss the development cycle
[13:58:32] <Eluvatar> but NS tools and such tend not to have the normal development cycle
[13:58:44] <Eluvatar> certainly nobody's paid me for any NS tools (unlike JAL
)[13:59:51] <Eluvatar> I think I'll solicit some questions to close.
[14:00:15] <Eluvatar> Unibot, any questions or thoughts you'd like us to talk about?
[14:00:24] <Eluvatar> (Or anyone else, don't be shy
)[14:01:54] <Starrie> has the way update time changed as suggested by this post? http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p16342806 or are regions still updated in order?
[14:02:22] <Eluvatar> I think that if that change were implemented, we'd have been told.
[14:02:35] <Sev> And we'd have noticed
[14:02:40] <Starrie> so that is just what's planned?
[14:02:42] <Ballotonia> That has not been implemented yet, though I should state that when it does the general order will be maintained as is.
[14:02:47] <Starrie> ok
[14:02:57] <Eluvatar> Sev is also correct
[14:03:11] <Eluvatar> We'd definitely have noticed regions updating out of order.
[14:03:26] <Eluvatar> (or nations, for that matter)
[14:03:29] <Ballotonia> How would you notice that? XML order will remain as is.
[14:03:40] <Eluvatar> The order in which happenings happen?
[14:03:46] <Ballotonia> Of course, I'll notify when that code goes live.
[14:04:09] <Eluvatar> and/or the way ties are broken, though if the xml order remains the same perhaps that will remain the same as well
[14:05:31] <Eluvatar> I'm certainly looking forward to Delegate-elect
[14:05:37] <Ballotonia> Ties in the rankings will see minor fluctuations, that's true.
[14:05:46] <NorthernSunrise> Ey, Unibot, you there?
[14:05:53] <Ananke> Do you think that using scripts to gather various kind of information makes regions more successful?
[14:06:12] <Eluvatar> Yes, it definitely helps
[14:06:27] <Eluvatar> It reduces the amount of time people spend on boring and repetitive information gathering tasks
[14:06:44] <Eluvatar> which not only leaves them more time for other things, it also reduces their frustration
[14:08:40] <Eluvatar> Regarding recruitment systems, one need only review the histories of the Commonwealth, Taijitu, and/or Gatesville and other large regions back in the day
[14:09:08] <Ananke> Some of us rather enjoy recruiting the oldfashioned way.
[14:09:15] <Eluvatar> Improved coordination of recruitment, and improved coverage of new nations, both definitely helped
[14:09:26] <Eluvatar> Ananke, by watching the feeders for nations being founded live?
[14:09:48] <Ananke> Nah, not that oldfashioned.
[14:10:05] <Eluvatar> I always found it frustrating to 'claim' feeders and report when one was 'done' with them with that approach, etc
[14:10:53] <Eluvatar> Taijitu's old Toaster systems would find nations to contact for you, but would not send for you (obviously <_< )
[14:11:10] <Eluvatar> I've definitely heard rumors that there were regions from time to time not respecting that fine line
[14:11:23] <Ananke> yeah, that's how it worked in 10ki too.
[14:11:38] <Eluvatar> and I'm sure it helped 10KI get to 2000 nations
[14:11:54] <Eluvatar> Which is rather farther than Taijitu ever got, even
[14:11:57] <Eluvatar> (1400ish)
[14:12:21] <Eluvatar> er, 1350ish?
[14:13:26] <Eluvatar> More questions mayhaps?
[14:14:58] <Eluvatar> Seeing none, I move to adjourn
[14:15:08] <Eluvatar> (And let me eat
)[14:15:17] <Ananke> Thanks for the talk, Elu.
[14:16:01] <Eluvatar> Please feel free to use this room in the remaining hour 44 minutes before Starrie's talk
[14:16:23] <Ballotonia> Thanks for chairing, Elu.
[14:16:42] <Sev> Thanks for Balloting, Ballotonia
