Removing Sedge from the Hall of Fame

[Vis]

On the 25th of December 2017, Sedge was introduced into the HoF. It is my belief that due to his behaviour, comments in the TRR Mute Button Thread and lack of engagement of any kind with TRR now, he no longer deserves to be a part of it. The HoF is meant to honour members that have contributed in a meaningful way to the region over a long time, and while I acknowledge that Sedge has indeed done that, he has forfeited the right to belong there any longer.

As stated in the Hall of Fame Act:
5. "The same procedures as described in article 4 shall be followed when removing an inductee from the Hall of Fame. Players that are Delete on Sight or broken community guidelines shall be immediately stripped of their membership in the Hall of Fame.”

Sedge is obviously not DOS, but in my opinion, he has broken community guidelines by tacitly allowing homophobes, transphobes and fascism supporters to lurk on the RMB while making their excuses.

[Hoffania]

Aye


I don't want to restart this by bumping it back to the top(which hopefully editing my post won't do), but I do want to say: I think I've pretty solidly changed my mind on this subject. I'm no longer in favor of removing Sedge and CG from the HoF. It's a bit of an extreme act for one action they took, they helped build the region, basically everything everyone else has already said.

[Guy]

Sedge and CG were rightly recognised for their substantial contributions to the region. While I strongly disagree with sedge and CG, and NS moderation more broadly, about the matters you raise, I do not consider their different outlook on what is sanctionable content rises to the point of going against community standards so to merit their removal from the HoF.

[Vis]

Guy, I'm not sure why you consider supporting and practically defending fascists, homophobes, racists and all other kinds of unpalatable people "not going against community standards". We don't accept it on the RMB, we don't accept it on the discord server, and we sure as hell don't accept it here on those forums. Any user caught doing either of the above would be removed (at least from the servers and forums), so I'm not sure why you believe CG and Sedge get a pass. This thread isn't about removing their citizenship- that's for the CitCo. But it is about showing that TRR doesn't honour people whose ideologies could and have hurt IRL. There is no argument about their previous contribution in any way or manner, but doing good deeds doesn't excuse in any capacity doing evil ones.

[Hoffania]

I think this is especially important now, seeing as one of the most vocal members on our RMB is trans herself, and has frequently complained about her IRL living situation, describing it as a “fascist village”. If we don’t give her a safe space online, then there’s nowhere else for her.

[BowShot118]

I don't support removing CG or Sedge from the Hall of Fame. While I think their most recent interactions (CG's in particular) with the TRR community have been distasteful at best, I don't believe it's severe enough to warrant their removal.

I do think this floats an interesting point about the Hall of Fame entries however. For CG and Sedge's in particular, their entries do not do much if anything to explain why they are significant to the Rejected Realms or worthy of immortalisation in the Hall of Fame. To anyone who joined NationStates after like, 2013 (which is most of us still active) we know very little to nothing of what they have done for the region and the entry makes no attempt to fill that gap. Compare CG's to Gres' entries:

CG's effectively boils down to "she's significant because she's important", unlike Gres' which discusses how they took TRR from the Atlantic Alliance and created the RRA, implying their significance.

Now, granted, most people who are active cits nowadays weren't around back when CG was important, including myself, so it's not like most people here could do anything but I would highly encourage our oldest members of the community to discuss why CG and Sedge were important (sources and specifics would be nice) so someone can take on the task of giving them a proper entry into the Hall of Fame.

[Tinhampton]

The Hall of Fame is a place to remember the greatest Rejects, not a place to remember the most vehement supporters of the Mute Button.

[Goobergunchia]

This is, frankly, too vague for me to engage with. The concept of a mute button is a policy question that would bring significant side effects -- disagreement with that kind of technical change should be well within community standards. The player that prompted that whole discussion is now DOS.

Now, granted, most people who are active cits nowadays weren't around back when CG was important, including myself, so it's not like most people here could do anything but I would highly encourage our oldest members of the community to discuss why CG and Sedge were important (sources and specifics would be nice) so someone can take on the task of giving them a proper entry into the Hall of Fame.

Annoyingly a lot of the old sources have vanished but if I get time (... unlikely in the imminent future, but) I can try to look things up?

[Vis]

Now, granted, most people who are active cits nowadays weren't around back when CG was important, including myself, so it's not like most people here could do anything but I would highly encourage our oldest members of the community to discuss why CG and Sedge were important (sources and specifics would be nice) so someone can take on the task of giving them a proper entry into the Hall of Fame.

Officer of the Forums when.

The Hall of Fame is a place to remember the greatest Rejects, not a place to remember the most vehement supporters of the Mute Button.

One day Tin, you will have a relevant argument to a discussion. But that is not this day.

This is, frankly, too vague for me to engage with. The concept of a mute button is a policy question that would bring significant side effects -- disagreement with that kind of technical change should be well within community standards. The player that prompted that whole discussion is now DOS.

This is not about should TRR have a mute button or not. This is about the behaviour of two individuals who were honoured in TRR, and this thread is meant to discuss whether they still deserve it, regardless of the decision of the NS moderation regarding the button or not. Notice that I have not mentioned at all their opinion about the button, because it's simply not relevant to the thread at all.

[Spartan Termopylae]

Bear in mind that I'm not currently coming down on either side here, but I'm curious the thread you linked to hasn't been posted in for 18 months, meaning the specific events you are using here (barring any potential consequences of the events) are long past. Both have been in the hall for 5 years.

My question: why now?

[Hoffania]

The Hall of Fame is a place to remember the greatest Rejects, not a place to remember the most vehement supporters of the Mute Button.

This would be a valid point if we were arguing to add Salem to the Hall of Fame, but we’re not. We’re arguing to remove Rejects who wanted to keep our region open to transphobia and fascism because we’re the game’s “trash bin”.

[Vis]

Bear in mind that I'm not currently coming down on either side here, but I'm curious the thread you linked to hasn't been posted in for 18 months, meaning the specific events you are using here (barring any potential consequences of the events) are long past. Both have been in the hall for 5 years.

My question: why now?

As I mentioned on the discord, I wasn't aware that it was even possible (or about the process), as I generally do not use the forums. I fully expect this not to pass, but instead send a message that TRR doesn't support having these kind of people in our HOF.

[Spartan Termopylae]

Again, not taking sides at the moment. If it doesn't pass, how did it send a message?

[Karputsk]

Echoing what Guy said, no support.

[Vis]

Again, not taking sides at the moment. If it doesn't pass, how did it send a message?

The question is, do we as a region want in our HOF people who have displayed that kind of behaviour. While I don't wish to tarnish history, I do believe measures of some kind should (and indeed, should have been done when the iron was hot), a compromise could be made to remove honourary citizenship from members of the HOF.

[Spartan Termopylae]

Apart from in this one situation, are there any other indications that Sedge or CG would appear to have breached guidelines? Is there a pattern of behaviour? Is this a one off occurrence, or are there more instances?

If this is something you wacht to do, if you want to censure people for something done a while in the past, we need a much information as we can get

[Anarchisticstan]

Hello, I'm curious on the exact statements CG and Sedge made. I can't give an opinion without maybe a link.

[Spartan Termopylae]

Hello, I'm curious on the exact statements CG and Sedge made. I can't give an opinion without maybe a link.

There a link in the original post to the relevant discussion on the NS forums, I believe

[NPS]

People here wanted a mute button, admin/moderation unanimously said no as it goes against NS's ethos, they tried to take it out on Sedge/CG. Obviously against.

[Manson]

People here wanted a mute button, admin/moderation unanimously said no as it goes against NS's ethos, they tried to take it out on Sedge/CG. Obviously against.

Yeah, all it comes down to is their usual snark + bad wording + ppl not getting something they wanted = frustration.

[Vis]

People here wanted a mute button, admin/moderation unanimously said no as it goes against NS's ethos, they tried to take it out on Sedge/CG. Obviously against.

Are you sure you read the post? At no where did I mention the mute button- Only commenters did. Their stand on "should TRR have a mute button" has absolutely nothing to do with this post, and I wish people would read the thread properly (and my other comments) before replying in a way that is not related in any way to the OP.

Yeah, all it comes down to is their usual snark + bad wording + ppl not getting something they wanted = frustration.

Since I couldn't help myself- There is snark, and there is straight up apathy and even ignorance of real issues that exist. It is clear to me that either you did not read the mute button thread, or straight up ignored it, since Rejects like Salem and others raised real concerns that at the time, nations were posting stuff like "better to suicide rather than marry a trans person", and Sedge's response was basically "typical GCR elitism". That's not snark, perhaps you should check the definition in the dictionary.

[Goobergunchia]

People here wanted a mute button, admin/moderation unanimously said no as it goes against NS's ethos, they tried to take it out on Sedge/CG. Obviously against.

Are you sure you read the post? At no where did I mention the mute button- Only commenters did. Their stand on "should TRR have a mute button" has absolutely nothing to do with this post, and I wish people would read the thread properly (and my other comments) before replying in a way that is not related in any way to the OP.

If you have specific examples in mind maybe you should link them directly instead of expecting everybody else to read a lengthy thread that frankly has very limited current relevance?

[Chef Big Dog]

I don't think Sedge and moderation being against a TRR mute button warrants having them removed from the Hall of Fame. Just because you disagree with a stance they had on the issue doesn't invalidate the work they've done for TRR in the past.

[Manson]

People here wanted a mute button, admin/moderation unanimously said no as it goes against NS's ethos, they tried to take it out on Sedge/CG. Obviously against.

Are you sure you read the post? At no where did I mention the mute button- Only commenters did. Their stand on "should TRR have a mute button" has absolutely nothing to do with this post, and I wish people would read the thread properly (and my other comments) before replying in a way that is not related in any way to the OP.

Yeah, all it comes down to is their usual snark + bad wording + ppl not getting something they wanted = frustration.

Since I couldn't help myself- There is snark, and there is straight up apathy and even ignorance of real issues that exist. It is clear to me that either you did not read the mute button thread, or straight up ignored it, since Rejects like Salem and others raised real concerns that at the time, nations were posting stuff like "better to suicide rather than marry a trans person", and Sedge's response was basically "typical GCR elitism". That's not snark, perhaps you should check the definition in the dictionary.

Of course comments like that are awful. Mods said they dislike the idea so the only feasible solution is to continue suppressing and reporting said people. Would a mute button be useful? Yes. Is it going to be implemented? No.

Sedge could’ve formulated his thoughts in a nicer way but it’s clear that he didn’t mean anything by that, outside of maybe thinking that we were complaining for no reason. I’m assuming that like most old people stuck in their ways, CG and Sedge’s position is “we had it hard dealing with the RMB when we were active in TRR and we don’t like the idea so you’re going to have it hard too”. Sure, it’s an asshole way of going about things but it doesn’t change the fact that both players fundamentally changed the region.

[Vis]

Goober, I'll respond to you on Friday, I'm sadly busy until then.

Tom and Manson, you are either incapable of basic reading comprehension, or straight up refuse to read multiple comments.