Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

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Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Manson »

Original text, formatting is a little broken mb.
1. This Act defines the responsibilities of the WA Delegate in their use of the Regional Controls of the in-game region of The Rejected Realms.

2. The official flag must be maintained by the Delegate as the flag of the Rejected Realms region.
The official flag of the Rejected Realms is the flag in Annex I of this Act.
The flag must be used in all official occasions requiring its use.
The Delegate may temporarily change the regional flag for cultural purposes, provided the flag does not represent another NS region or organization.
3. The Delegate must maintain the Rejected Realms' regional tags in accordance with this Act.
The following regional tags must not be added to the Rejected Realms: "Imperialist", "Totalitarian", "Fascist", "Monarchist", "Independent", "Invader", "Mercenary", "Patriarchal", "Jump Point", “Puppet Storage", or “Embassy Collector”.
The following regional tags must not be removed from the Rejected Realms: "Democratic", "Regional Government", "Defender", "Offsite Forums", and "Offsite Chat".
4. The Delegate is responsible for maintaining a World Factbook Entry that promotes The Rejected Realms and in particular items and ongoing events of interest to residents.
The World Factbook Entry must include a prominent link to the forums of The Rejected Realms as recognised by the Constitution, and to the official Discord server of the Rejected Realms with the server ID 214955471071608833.
The World Factbook Entry must not promote a region, organisation, or any other entity that The Rejected Realms is not allied with or a member of.
5. All residents and visitors are free to use the Regional Message Board as a common site of conversation, without malfeasance or harassment.
The Delegate may suppress content on the Regional Message Board only insofar as this suppression helps maintain a safe and open public space for other residents; this includes, but is not limited to:
Any posts which breach the site's rules.
Advertisements.
Messages inciting an unlawful seizure of the delegacy.
The Delegate may extend posting privileges to nations in regions with which The Rejected Realms has an embassy.
The Delegate is encouraged to publish a policy that stipulates the general circumstances in which posts may be suppressed.
6. Regional officers, in exercising their powers, are subject to the same limitations set out in law as the Delegate.
The Delegate must not appoint as a regional officer a person whose citizenship application was rejected or whose citizenship was revoked for any reason other than not having a nation in the region and has not since gained citizenship.
The Assembly retains its Constitutional power to direct the Delegate to dismiss a regional officer, and not to appoint a person as regional officer.
The Delegate must endeavour to ensure that, in exercising their powers, regional officers abide by NationStates rules and regional law and act in a way that represents the region well.
Annex I
Proposed edit:
1. This Act defines the responsibilities of the WA Delegate in their use of the Regional Controls of the in-game region of The Rejected Realms.

2. The official flag must be maintained by the Delegate as the flag of the Rejected Realms region.
The official flag of the Rejected Realms is the flag in Annex I of this Act.
The flag must be used in all official occasions requiring its use.
The Delegate may temporarily change the regional flag for cultural purposes, provided the flag does not represent another NS region or organization.
3. The Delegate must maintain the Rejected Realms' regional tags in accordance with this Act.
The following regional tags must not be added to the Rejected Realms: "Imperialist", "Totalitarian", "Fascist", "Monarchist", ”Communist”, "Independent", "Invader", "Mercenary", "Patriarchal", "Jump Point", “Puppet Storage", or “Embassy Collector”., or “Colony”.
The following regional tags must not be removed from the Rejected Realms: "Democratic", "Regional Government", "Defender", "Offsite Forums", and "Offsite Chat".
4. The Delegate is responsible for maintaining a World Factbook Entry that promotes The Rejected Realms and in particular items and ongoing events of interest to residents.
The World Factbook Entry must include a prominent link to the forums of The Rejected Realms as recognised by the Constitution, and to the official Discord server of the Rejected Realms with the server ID 214955471071608833.
The World Factbook Entry must not promote a region, organisation, or any other entity that The Rejected Realms is not allied with or a member of.
5. All residents and visitors are free to use the Regional Message Board as a common site of conversation, without malfeasance or harassment.
The Delegate may suppress content on the Regional Message Board only insofar as this suppression helps maintain a safe and open public space for other residents; this includes, but is not limited to:
Any posts which breach the site's rules.
Advertisements.
Messages inciting an unlawful seizure of the delegacy.
The Delegate may extend posting privileges to nations in regions with which The Rejected Realms has an embassy.
The Delegate is encouraged to publish a policy that stipulates the general circumstances in which posts may be suppressed.
6. Regional officers, in exercising their powers, are subject to the same limitations set out in law as the Delegate.
The Delegate must not appoint as a regional officer a person whose citizenship application was rejected or whose citizenship was revoked for any reason other than not having a nation in the region and has not since gained citizenship.
The Assembly retains its Constitutional power to direct the Delegate to dismiss a regional officer, and not to appoint a person as regional officer.
The Delegate must endeavour to ensure that, in exercising their powers, regional officers abide by NationStates rules and regional law and act in a way that represents the region well.
Annex I
Feel free to discuss.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by BowShot118 »

what's wrong with the communist tag
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Mad Jack »

BowShot118 wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 16:45
what's wrong with the communist tag
It's an ideology predicated on the violent overthrow of society and the liquidation of entire classes of people and anyone deemed 'subversive' or counter revolutionary.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by BowShot118 »

Mad Jack wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 16:47
BowShot118 wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 16:45
what's wrong with the communist tag
It's an ideology predicated on the violent overthrow of society and the liquidation of entire classes of people and anyone deemed 'subversive' or counter revolutionary.
Okay fair enough
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Manson »

BowShot118 wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 16:49
Mad Jack wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 16:47
BowShot118 wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 16:45
what's wrong with the communist tag
It's an ideology predicated on the violent overthrow of society and the liquidation of entire classes of people and anyone deemed 'subversive' or counter revolutionary.
Okay fair enough
Additionally it doesn’t make sense for us to permit someone to add the “Communist” tag while restricting other ideological tags (except for fascism of course). Arguably they all stand against what our Constitution exemplifies.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by LiberzanEmpire »

Yes. While I dislike communism in general, it is not a good idea to allow ourselves to tag our region in relation to supporting a specific political ideology. Our region is diverse in beliefs.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Manson »

I’d like to move forward with a vote on this if no one’s opposed.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by BowShot118 »

Will be put up tomorrow unless any objections are posted before then
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by frattastan »

"Moving this to NSG".

I will be voting against. This region should stand for the end of capitalism and a more rational and just organization of society. 8)

Many of Marx's insights into mankind's history and its present condition hold value to this day. Communism rejects the idea that human affairs are a static or "natural" occurrence, which must be taken as it is, and instead aims to consciously subjugate them to the power of united individuals. This should allow both greater freedom and greater ability to improve our lives. In communist and socialist thought the key to achieve this is supposed to be the abolition of property.

There are democratic countries where the communist movement represented a major progressive force which contributed to the betterment of people's living conditions. "Communism" and "socialism" were born as equivalent terms for the same movement, and can only be separated in the context of the split that happened in response to the 1917 revolutions in Russia. Given the demise of the USSR and of Moscow's control over communist parties this difference will become ever less important.
Mad Jack wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 16:47
It's an ideology predicated on the violent overthrow of society and the liquidation of entire classes of people and anyone deemed 'subversive' or counter revolutionary.
Major social changes have often been accompanied by violence or civil war (even celebrated ones like the American Revolution or the 1861-65 war). In part this is because government itself, or the enforcement of customs, is based on day-to-day coercion. Once change began to occur some groups refused to accept the new order and tried to cling to the old one as best as they could. It's very possible that this will continue to happen in the future if major changes become possible - although these sort of predictions are always unwise.

As for the idea that it is predicated on "the liquidation of entire classes of people and anyone deemed 'subversive' or counter revolutionary", that's just untrue. Some communists definitely advocated that, and ended up causing a massive amount of suffering because of it (along with the suffering they caused for other reasons), but it's by no means a basic feature. If that was all it took to define communism then Robespierre would be a communist.
Manson wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 20:38
Additionally it doesn’t make sense for us to permit someone to add the “Communist” tag while restricting other ideological tags (except for fascism of course). Arguably they all stand against what our Constitution exemplifies.
We don't restrict other political tags, though? No one asked to ban the "Feminist" tag just because the "Patriarchal" tag is banned under the pretense of equivalence. There are many political tags that have so far been allowed by law, even if they're unlikely to be added out of respect to pluralism in beliefs (and because they have little relevance to why we come together as a region here on NS).

Beyond fascism or monarchism I'm unsure what specific tags could be said to stand against "what our Constitution exemplifies". Even then, the Constitution only represents the form whereby we found most fitting to organise our government at a given time. There is an amendment process exactly because it doesn't embody any deep truth.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Ambrosia »

I don't particularly care one way or another on the matter of the Communist tag because TRR is not a communist region, but I do resent that it opened the door to obnoxious liberal grandstanding. No issue with forbidding Colony.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Manson »

The Feminist and Patriarchal tags aren’t equivalent, you surely know that, Fratt

Would it be possible for us to vote on tags separately again within the same topic so for example, someone could be like “Aye” to banning the Colony tag and “Nay” to banning the Communist tag? That’s a question for Bow, I guess.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by BowShot118 »

Manson wrote:
15 Dec 2023, 17:36
Would it be possible for us to vote on tags separately again within the same topic so for example, someone could be like “Aye” to banning the Colony tag and “Nay” to banning the Communist tag? That’s a question for Bow, I guess.
I see no reason why I can't.

I'll kick back opening the vote til tomorrow though to give other people time to comment, assuming not much more is said I'll put it up tomorrow.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Manson »

BowShot118 wrote:
15 Dec 2023, 17:39
Manson wrote:
15 Dec 2023, 17:36
Would it be possible for us to vote on tags separately again within the same topic so for example, someone could be like “Aye” to banning the Colony tag and “Nay” to banning the Communist tag? That’s a question for Bow, I guess.
I see no reason why I can't.

I'll kick back opening the vote til tomorrow though to give other people time to comment, assuming not much more is said I'll put it up tomorrow.
Awesome, thanks!
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Giangsang »

Manson wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 20:38
Additionally it doesn’t make sense for us to permit someone to add the “Communist” tag while restricting other ideological tags (except for fascism of course). Arguably they all stand against what our Constitution exemplifies.
sorry for being late to the party, but
Are there other ideological tags restricted other than fascism?
am i blind?

i'm rereading the text over and over again and the only restricted tags i can see that might be considered ideological are "totalitarian" and "monarchist", both referring to a mode of governance in an NS sense. (Like how regions have the monarchist tag because their leadership are monarchies, not because they're all supporters of monarchy irl)

then again, i am legally blind, so i might have missed something here.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Catalyse »

I think we should ban the liberal tag.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Manson »

Giangsang wrote:
15 Dec 2023, 17:41
Manson wrote:
05 Dec 2023, 20:38
Additionally it doesn’t make sense for us to permit someone to add the “Communist” tag while restricting other ideological tags (except for fascism of course). Arguably they all stand against what our Constitution exemplifies.
sorry for being late to the party, but
Are there other ideological tags restricted other than fascism?
am i blind?

i'm rereading the text over and over again and the only restricted tags i can see that might be considered ideological are "totalitarian" and "monarchist", both referring to a mode of governance in an NS sense. (Like how regions have the monarchist tag because their leadership are monarchies, not because they're all supporters of monarchy irl)

then again, i am legally blind, so i might have missed something here.
I was considering “Imperialist”, “Fascist”, “Monarchist”, and “Totalitarian” as ideological tags. Patriarchal somewhat but that’s not exactly a political ideology.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Catalyse »

Ok, but if you want to ban ideological tags on principle why single out the communist tag in this proposal and not ban the liberal and conservative tags, for example?
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by The Grim Reaper »

This is a stupid fucking equivalency.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Salem »

Just looked on-site, the political/more IRL themed tags are as follows:

Anarchist, Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Communist, Anti-Fascist, Capitalist, Communist, Conservative, Fascist, Feminist, LGBT, Liberal, Libertarian, Patriarchal, Religious, Socialist, and Totalitarian. Probs missed one or two, but that's a larger list.

Anyway ban all of the tags or leave it as is. I won't get into the political aspect of any of this, but there's going to be a large difference between someone in our community wo holds the IRL beliefs of communism vs the IRL beliefs of fascism. I've seen a not-small list of people w/ fascist views get banned from TRR but I've never seen anyone with communist views get banned for being a bigoted shit.

Support adding colony to the list of banned tags though.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Mad Jack »

frattastan wrote:
15 Dec 2023, 16:48
Major social changes have often been accompanied by violence or civil war (even celebrated ones like the American Revolution or the 1861-65 war). In part this is because government itself, or the enforcement of customs, is based on day-to-day coercion. Once change began to occur some groups refused to accept the new order and tried to cling to the old one as best as they could. It's very possible that this will continue to happen in the future if major changes become possible - although these sort of predictions are always unwise.

As for the idea that it is predicated on "the liquidation of entire classes of people and anyone deemed 'subversive' or counter revolutionary", that's just untrue. Some communists definitely advocated that, and ended up causing a massive amount of suffering because of it (along with the suffering they caused for other reasons), but it's by no means a basic feature. If that was all it took to define communism then Robespierre would be a communist
When you have Marx saying “there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.” Like he does in The Victory of the Counter-Revolution in Vienna, then it certainly seems like a basic feature to me.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by LiberzanEmpire »

Why should a region that is not based on a singular political ideology have the ability to label itself as “communist”?
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Manson »

LiberzanEmpire wrote:
15 Dec 2023, 20:47
Why should a region that is not based on a singular political ideology have the ability to label itself as “communist”?
I think your question probably falls in line with Salem’s post.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by LiberzanEmpire »

Manson wrote:
15 Dec 2023, 21:08
LiberzanEmpire wrote:
15 Dec 2023, 20:47
Why should a region that is not based on a singular political ideology have the ability to label itself as “communist”?
I think your question probably falls in line with Salem’s post.
Edit: On the point of IRL political ideology that salem made, I agree. Communism shouldn’t be singled out, but it should still be included in the list of forbidden tags.

Anti-Fascist and LGBT are the only ones that shouldn’t be forbidden though
Last edited by LiberzanEmpire on 16 Dec 2023, 00:08, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Giangsang »

i don't see a reason to single out communism, anyhow. we have citizens that are communists, we also have citizens who are of other ideologies.

adding the "communist" tag would make it an odd-one-out among the already existing tags, since it's the only tag that's based on an irl ideology held by members of the region. it's inconsistent with the rest of the banned tags. as salem said, we could either stay consistent and add no such tags, or stay consistent and add all those tags. the latter feels a little excessive and unnecessary to me, though.

manson seems to have suggested that change with the assumption that the “Imperialist”, “Monarchist”, and “Totalitarian” tags were referring to IRL ideology. i don't think they are, in this case. they seem (to me) be referring to the NS definitions. the imperialism, like that of kantrias; the monarchism, like that of osiris, etc., not actual irl-ideological descriptions.

adding “Colony” to the list seems fair enough and I have no objections toward it.
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Re: Amendment to the Regional Controls Act

Post by Guy »

This has evoked some passionate debate, which is generally a good thing. Unfortunately, much of it has focused on the merits of RL communism, which I think is unfortunate. One has to first go back to the logic of prohibiting particular tags in the Regional Controls Act, and then evaluate the Communism tag within that framework.

When I first proposed the Regional Tags Act, I explained my rationale as follows:
Guy wrote:
10 Apr 2015, 04:30
The logic behind my draft is as follows:
3. The following regional tags must not be added to the Rejected Realms: "Imperialist", "Totalitarian", "Fascist", "Monarchist", "Independent", "Invader", or "Mercenary".
We're actually constitutionally prohibited from being any of those things. It makes no sense to say that it could be a matter for Executive policy.
4. The following regional tags may not be removed from the Rejected Realms: "Democratic", "Regional Government", "Defender" and "Offsite Forums".
The same goes for these tags. We are constitutionally Democratic, have a Regional Government, and our Offiste Forums are recognised by the Constitution. With regards to Defender, the consensus was that rather than constitutionalise our position, it'll be statutorily recognised.
When we inserted 'patriarchal', 'puppet storage', and 'jump point' to the list of proscribed tags, I explained my position as follows:
Guy wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 10:46
I also agree with Twertis that the prohibited tags should only be those that fundamentally contradict TRR's identity and values, such that no Delegate could reasonably impose them. Where I diverge is on the application. The "Puppet Storage" tag signifies that is the region's main purpose. TRR's purpose is to be an active region for those who wish to call it home, with a democratic government responsible to its citizens and residents.

I think it's wrong to draw a false equivalence between the Patriarchal and matriarchal tags. If people require a further explanation of the interaction of gender and gaming/NS I'm sure it can be supplied, but spare us if not. The message that would be broadcast by a 'patriarchial' tag is quite a wrong one, that independently of our IC alignment, I would not be willing to entertain.
From this, one can glean 2 circumstances in which a tag could be prohibited, so to take away the Delegate's power to add them:
a. It would signify something about TRR as a region that we are constitutionally prohibited from being; or
b. It would signify something that no reasonable Delegate could (unilaterally?) impose, because doing so would fundamentally contradict TRR's identity and values.

What does the Communism tag mean?

As giang points out, there are 2 somewhat distinct things that could be conveyed by the tag:
1. The region is structured as a communist one; or
2. TRR, as a region, expresses support for the ideals of communism.

I think TRR's constitutional structure is quite clearly not a communist one, for the same reason that we had prohibited the 'totalitarian' and 'fascist' tags. This does not mean Communism is anything like fascism, but our Constitution makes us neither.

It's worth pausing there. If a reasonable NSer would read the tag as necessarily meaning #1, without entertaining #2, then that is sufficient reason to proscribe it. So perhaps ask yourselves the question: when you see the 'Communist' tag, do you understand the region is structured as such, as opposed to merely offering support for the RL ideology? If so, it must be proscribed.

Should the 'Communism' tag be proscribed?

Assuming that is not the case, and reasonable NSers would understand #2 to be a plausible reading, the question then becomes whether TRR, as a region, expressing its support for the RL ideology of communism, would be contrary to the values of the region, such that the Delegate should be prohibited from doing so unilaterally.

I think the answer to this question has to be yes. Communism is clearly controversial among members of our region. The Delegate unilaterally expressing our region's support for Communism would be divisive, and strike at our politically pluralist nature as a region. Reshaping our region to formally express its support to Communism would be contrary to who we are, and have been, as a region.

Salem raises a fair question, of whether other political tags ought to be prohibited if Communism is proscribed. The answer to that lies in the application of the principles above.

Tags such as 'LGBT' and 'Feminist' are clearly not controversial among the members of the region, and I imagine there would be consensus among the region for them. You could at the very least argue that TRR is structured as a liberal democracy. So I certainly don't think it's an all-or-nothing proposition, as Salem raises. Each tag merits separate consideration.

Should the onus be reversed?

This does raise an interesting question: should the Regional Controls Act's provisions on regional tags be changed, so that the Delegate must not add any tags that are not permitted?

The Regional Tags Act was written at a time when the region's democracy was at a less mature stage, and so were regional tags - there was a stronger possibility of them changing. Perhaps, rather than generally leaving tags to the Delegate's discretion, only specified tags should be permitted.
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