Constitutional Amendment III: Voting Periods

[Catalyse]

Article 3: The Assembly

• A: The Assembly consists of all citizens of The Rejected Realms.
• B: The Assembly is responsible for voting on laws, treaties, declarations of war, constitutional amendments, electing Officers and the WA Delegate, and acting as a court of appeal.
• C: Votes in the Assembly are visible to all citizens, and last for seven days.
• D: Votes on laws, treaties and appeals require a simple majority vote to pass. Declarations of war require a 75% majority vote to pass or amend, and a simple majority to repeal. Amendments to the Constitution require a 75% majority vote to pass.
• E: Contested elections shall follow a format decided by the Assembly.
• F: Uncontested elections for Officer must be confirmed by a simple majority vote.

Changed to:

Article 3: The Assembly

• A: The Assembly consists of all citizens of The Rejected Realms.
• B: The Assembly is responsible for voting on laws, treaties, declarations of war, constitutional amendments, electing Officers and the WA Delegate, and acting as a court of appeal.
• C: Votes in the Assembly are visible to all citizens, and last for four days.
• D: Votes on laws, treaties and appeals require a simple majority vote to pass. Declarations of war require a 75% majority vote to pass or amend, and a simple majority to repeal. Amendments to the Constitution require a 75% majority vote to pass.

And;

Article 7: The Challenge System

• A: Any citizen who wishes to become an Officer or the Delegate may challenge for the position. A challenge for Delegate requires the support of two other citizens. A challenge for Officer requires the support of one other citizen. This requirement is waived for officials seeking reelection.
• B: Elections begin once a challenge is submitted. If the elections are for the position of Delegate, any citizens admitted after this time will not be allowed to vote until elections are completed.
• C: Any citizen who also wishes to submit a challenge may do so during the first week of elections in the case of a challenge for Delegate, or during the first three days of elections in the case of a challenge for Officer. No further challenges will be accepted during the elections after this period.
• D: After the challenge period is completed, the Assembly will vote to elect the Delegate or Officer as set out in Article 3, except that in the case of Officer elections, where the vote shall last four days. Candidates may campaign during voting.
• E: A challenge to an official within 30 days of their election shall require the support of four citizens.
• F: In the case there is more than one Officer position vacant, and at the end of the challenge period for any vacancy the number of candidates for all vacant positions exceeds the number of vacancies, one election shall be held for all vacant positions. As many candidates shall be elected as there are vacancies.

Changed to:

Article 7: Elections

• A: Any citizen who wishes to become an Officer or the Delegate may challenge for the position. A challenge for Delegate requires the support of two other citizens. A challenge for Officer requires the support of one other citizen. This requirement is waived for officials being challenged.
• B: Election's challenging period begin once a challenge is submitted. If the elections are for the position of Delegate, any citizens admitted after the start of the challenging period will not be allowed to vote until elections are completed.
• C: Any citizen who also wishes to submit a challenge may do so during the challenging period, which in the case of a challenge for Delegate shall be seven days, or three daysin the case of a challenge for Officer. No further challenges will be accepted during the elections after this period.
• D: After the challenge period is completed, the Assembly will vote to elect the Delegate or Officer. The voting period for the Delegate shall take five days and the voting period for Officers shall take two days.
• E: A challenge to an official after or before 30 days of their election shall require the support of four citizens.
• F: In the case that there is more than one Officer position being vacated or challenged, elections shall be held concurrently. In the case that more than one citizen has shown intent in running for an Officer position or Delegate there shall be an election as determined by the assembly, otherwise the single candidate must be confirmed simple majority vote.

The only major change here is reducing the voting times from 7 days to 5 days in the Delegacy elections, from 7 days to 4 days in other assembly votes and from 4 days to 2 days in officer elections. Everything else is reword to fit my own tastes... and to try to make certain thing clearer ( mainly 7F which was really confusing, and has been merged with 3D & 3F ).

[Guy]

E: A challenge to an official after or before 30 days of their election shall require the support of four citizens.

Uhm, no

We haven't been big on legislative reform here cause we know how everything works, but I agree that Article 7 could be worded better. I like that you've moved the remaining election stuff from Article 3 to Art 7.

I think that having three different vote lengths is unnecessary.

[Catalyse]

They're votes on three different things: legislation/treaties, officers and the delegate. I don't think it's an unnecessary distinction because these are all different things.

And well, you may know how things work, but making things clearer should make things more welcoming.

[Guy]

Summary of changes:

• Substantive changes, or those clarifying ambiguities, are coloured. These are all changes other than those to Article 7.
• The change in Article 2 clarifies the meaning of the provision. If the Citizenship Council finds no security concerns, it must approve the application. It has been raised before that this is not automatic in the strict sense.
• Article 5: There have always been four Officer positions. There have been vacancies. But never any fewer or more than four positions.
• Article 5: Clarifies that vacant positions can be filled at the same time as replacing existing Officers.
• Article 7: Clarifies that citizens admitted after Delegate elections have begun are only ineligible to vote in that election, and not in other Assembly business.
• Further, Article 7 is entirely redrafted. The new text is easier on the eyes, and fits nicely with our Elections Law. It is longer, given it consolidates provisions from other Articles on elections.
• Our Constitution alternatively refers to "WA Delegate" and "Delegate". Ideally, I would prefer just one or the other. A simple "all instances of WA Delegate are to be changed to Delegate" should suffice.
• I think that shortening the voting period should be considered separately.

Spoiler: click to toggle

Article 2: Citizenship

• A: Citizenship may be granted to any person who has a nation in The Rejected Realms and an account on TRR's forums.
• B: All citizenship applications are subject to a security check by the Citizenship Council. Citizenship applications are automatically to be approved if no security concerns are found.
• C: Citizenship may be granted by a unanimous decision of the Citizenship Council, or if more than 7 days have passed since the application, by a majority vote. Any councillor may deny citizenship. Citizenship may be retracted by a majority vote of the Citizenship Council. A decision to deny or retract citizenship may be appealed to the Assembly as set out in Article 3.

Article 3: The Assembly

• A: The Assembly consists of all citizens of The Rejected Realms.
• B: The Assembly is responsible for voting on laws, treaties, declarations of war, constitutional amendments and appeals from the Citizenship Council, and electing Officers and the WA Delegate. and acting as a court of appeal.
• C: Votes in the Assembly are visible to all citizens, and last for seven days.
• D: Votes on laws, treaties and appeals require a simple majority vote to pass. Declarations of war require a 75% majority vote to pass or amend, and a simple majority to repeal. Amendments to the Constitution require a 75% majority vote to pass.

Article 5: Officers

• A: Officers of the region are responsible for carrying out the governmental functions of the region.
• B: There are four Officer positions. Up to four Officers may exist at any one time. Vacant positions will be filled before current Officers are replaced. Current Officers must not be replaced before vacant positions are filled.
• C: Elections shall begin for all Officer positions on the first day of April, August and December, as if a challenge had been made. Incumbent Officers must confirm their intent to stand as candidates, under Article 7 Clause A.

Article 7: Elections

• A: Any citizen who wishes to become an Officer or the Delegate may challenge for the position.
• B: Elections begin once a challenge is submitted. If the elections are for the position of Delegate, any citizens admitted after this time will not be allowed to vote until that election has concluded in that election.
• C: The challenge period is the first seven days of Delegate elections and first four days of Officer elections. Further challenges must be submitted during the challenge period. An official being challenged must confirm their intent to run during the challenge period.
• D: A challenge to an official within 30 days of their election requires the support of four other citizens. Otherwise, a challenge for Delegate requires the support of two other citizens, and a challenge for Officer requires the support of one other citizen.
• E: Following the challenge period, the Assembly will vote to elect the Delegate or Officer. Voting is to be open for seven days in Delegate elections, and four days in Officer elections.
• F: Simultaneous elections will begin for all Officer positions on the first day of April, August and December, as if a challenge had been made. Incumbent Officers must confirm their intent to run.
• G: If there are multiple vacant Officer position, each challenge is to be taken to be for all vacant positions, and a simultaneous election is to be held.
• H: The voting system is determined by law. If there is only one candidate in an election, a confirmation vote requiring a simple majority is to be held. Simultaneous elections are to be held as a single election for multiple positions, except that if the number of candidates does not exceed the number of vacancies, each candidate is to be subject to a confirmation vote.

[Guy]

And well, you may know how things work, but making things clearer should make things more welcoming.

Yeah, you're right. It probably can be quite confounding until one has seen it in practice a few times.

[Catalyse]

I think that shortening the voting period should be considered separately.

That just slows down things... D: You'd have to wait until one of the proposals is approved or not to get the other to a vote.

[thechurchofsatan]

That's kinda the point.

[Catalyse]

That's kinda the point.

It's a bad point.

[thechurchofsatan]

I could support changing voting lengths for non-election things. Four days is acceptable for non-election votes. However I believe voting lengths for elections are fine as is. Two days for officer elections is more than just a security risk, it doesn't provide enough time for campaigning. The citizenry loses time to question those who feel they can lead this region.

[Catalyse]

I could support changing voting lengths for non-election things. Four days is acceptable for non-election votes. However I believe voting lengths for elections are fine as is. Two days for officer elections is more than just a security risk, it doesn't provide enough time for campaigning. The citizenry loses time to question those who feel they can lead this region.

It's actually five days in total for officers. Three days for the challenging/campaigning period and two days for the voting period, through which campaigning and questioning can still be held. As for the delegate, one week for challenging period should be more than enough, without event counting the remaining five day voting period.

As for Assembly votes on legislation and such, I'd ever go so far as to say that the four days that I put in the first post is still too long. Two days would be more to my liking, or we could settle midway with three days.

[thechurchofsatan]

Even during voting discussion continues. I think our current voting lengths are good. They've worked and nobody has complained.

[Catalyse]

Even during voting discussion continues. I think our current voting lengths are good. They've worked and nobody has complained.

Yes, that's what I said. And no, they're not good, TRR's just used to being slow.

In the latest officer elections no vote was cast after the third day. The one before it was three days too. Then five, but six out of the 8 votes were cast in four days. Then five. Then three days. Then three days again...

[thechurchofsatan]

And some people wait. Some people login after voting has started. Current voting lengths allow time for careful consideration.

[LPLTUKM]

Why do you folks want to change our constitution? It's working really well, and I don't think we should change things who work really well.

[Catalyse]

Why do you folks want to change our constitution? It's working really well, and I don't think we should change things who work really well.

It's working, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve it. At bare least the cosmetic changes make it easier to be understood.

And some people wait. Some people login after voting has started. Current voting lengths allow time for careful consideration.

I think a shorter timeframe still allows for the region to transition faster. We're talking about a week + five days of voting for the WA Delegate election and three days + two days of voting for other Officers.

If your major concern is over the officer's election then we could decrease it just by one day instead of two? That'd be three days for challenging and three days for voting. And this is coming from someone who is used to have elections happen in 24 hours.

[Guy]

I think there is a case to be made for shortening the voting periods, even if I'm not entirely convinced yet that it's the right course of action (I'd like to look at when people have actually voted in recent votes, for example).

Having said that, it will likely prove more controversial than the other changes. I'd rather not sink the whole thing if possible. Perhaps two separate threads will serve us well?

[Catalyse]

I would create a new thread for what you wrote, but, uhm, you wrote it, not me.

[thechurchofsatan]

Elections aren't fast in TRR for a reason. Elections done in haste lead to costly mistakes.

[drunkenconquerors]

Against. The only thing remotely wise here is the language clarity and consolidation in sections. Otherwise the time is needed for proper vetting.

[Spartan Termopylae]

Voting length doesn't need to change. I don't think making it faster would make it better. It feels like change for the sake of change, which I am firmly against. Wording changes for clarification...I'm not explicitly against, but I'm not sure they're necessary

[Catalyse]

I highly doubt that the voting period has anything to do with vetting, that's done, at bare least, during the longer challenging period.

[Catalyse]

Voting length doesn't need to change. I don't think making it faster would make it better. It feels like change for the sake of change, which I am firmly against. Wording changes for clarification...I'm not explicitly against, but I'm not sure they're necessary

It's not change for the sake of change in any way, because making things faster makes... things faster? Also, the wording changes clears up the language of the constituion, so it's quite necessary.

We could at least agree that the seven days for all Assembly votes is needlessly long, no?

[frattastan]

I'm all for rewording unclear parts, as long as we don't change the meaning or end up with a more confusing text.

As for shortening the voting periods, I don't mind the idea, I just want to check how many people voted on which days in previous election, so we don't shorten it more than necessary. I'd probably want to keep delegate (and maybe constitutional amendments) voting at seven days, but beyond that I'd consider suggestions: three days for Officer sounds good enough to me, for example.

I don't think we should change things who work really well.

We should, if there's an opportunity for them to work better. There's nothing sacred in the number "seven".

[Catalyse]

Discussions on the wording changes should be moved to here: http://s8.zetaboards.com/The_RR_and_RRA ... 158/1/#new

Like Fratt said, there's no reason why we can't toy with other options. Churchofsatan is open to reducing the Assembly voting period to four days , which is ok for me, even though it's still more time than I'd like. Fratt has also suggested that the voting period on constitutional amendemnts should remain the same, seven days, though to be honest, I still one week is way too long.

Another suggestion, by Fratt, is to instead of reducing the voting period we reduced the challeging period instead. I don't know why I don't like it, since people are more likely to vote than be a challangee. Maybe it'd because I associate the period before voting for campaigning and discussion while I suppose people would have made up their mind by the time the vote comes up and would need less time for that. Still, better than not shortening anything the way I see it.

[frattastan]

In practice, campaigning can happen during the vote.
I'll note that originally elections were broken into three parts: a challenge period (three days for Officer, seven for Delegate), a "campaign" period (another three or seven days), a voting period (seven days for both). Thus, Officer elections lasted thirteen days and Delegate lasted twenty-one days.

The above periods have been cut considerably later on, to seven and fourteen days, with no harm to our democracy, or to the ability of people to vote or campaign (as those of you who experienced both can tell), or to 'reflect'.
While there is such a thing as "too short", we haven't approached it.