[PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

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[PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by The Grim Reaper »

Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

This Act constitutes The Rejected Realms Media Corporation as an autonomous organization within the jurisdiction of the government of The Rejected Realms.

1. The Rejected Realms Media Corporation is the organization constituted by The Rejected Realms for the purpose of exercising editorial independence.
2. The Rejected Realms Media Corporation is permitted to utilize the platforms of The Rejected Realms to carry out its operations.
3. The Editor-in-Chief is the head of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation.
4. The Editor-in-Chief is responsible for maintaining The Rejected Realms Media Corporation's editorial independence and the authoritative record of Members of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation, in regards to which they may add or remove any current Citizen with their consent, or unilaterally remove any non-Citizen.
5. The Delegate of The Rejected Realms must appoint an Editor-in-Chief when the position is vacant.
6. Members of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation may challenge the Editor-in-Chief in the manner prescribed for an Officer of the Rejected Realms.
7. The Assembly of The Rejected Realms may vacate the Editor-in-Chief by a majority vote.
8. Publications by The Rejected Realms Media Corporation credited to someone who is not a citizen of The Rejected Realms at time of publication must have a credit that indicates they are a Guest of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation.
Last edited by The Grim Reaper on 20 Apr 2020, 08:36, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Cove »

I like the act in principle. It seems logical, and I appreciate the nature of it is quite short.

I have a few questions just to help clarify the proposal I hope. Nakari and CoS both mentioned on discord some potential issues with the proposal, so I'd like to look at these.

Nakari obviously mentioned that there is nothing in the legislation to prevent the Delegate re-proposing the dismissed EIC, but I'm confident in the knowledge that the challenge system is adequate in that instance.

How would you say that the legislation should be designed to prevent us as an assembly removing the EIC over one article? Obviously, in some cases that might be appropriate to do so if it would damage the region's reputation, but it's a fair point in regards to censorship in that the assembly could in effect create many barriers to the TRT being able to publish, so my suggestion for that is simple, make the proposal to remove the EIC a 2/3 majority vote. It may not solve the issues, but it would at least help reduce the idea that the assembly had the audacity to continually censor the TRT.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by thechurchofsatan »

I may be willing to compromise for a 2/3 majority.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by The Grim Reaper »

7. The Assembly of The Rejected Realms may vacate the Editor-in-Chief by supermajority vote.

"Majority" changed to "Supermajority"
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Deadeye Jack »

Have I missed where Supermajority is defined anywhere?

Aside from that I'm not sure I agree with that since we've already taken the Assembly and Delegate's voice almost entirely out of choosing an EiC. I honestly don't think the recall function will be abused in the fashion it is feared but if so, I'd be fine with revising it once we cross that bridge.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by The Grim Reaper »

Deadeye Jack wrote:
18 Apr 2020, 18:19
Have I missed where Supermajority is defined anywhere?

Aside from that I'm not sure I agree with that since we've already taken the Assembly and Delegate's voice almost entirely out of choosing an EiC. I honestly don't think the recall function will be abused in the fashion it is feared but if so, I'd be fine with revising it once we cross that bridge.

Ah, you were correct - we use two different values for "super"majority in the constitution so both are just defined as value-majorities; so I've done the same here for two-thirds majority, now, which is in line with the CitCo and V-D confirmations.

Frankly I'd prefer a majority vote too but I don't particularly care at this juncture. I'm happy with whichever is more likely to get passed. But I have gone ahead to define it specifically as a two-thirds majority, rather than just a "supermajority", for now.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Spartan Termopylae »

As discussed elsewhere, ad nauseam, I an not in favour of this.

However, I will propose a change, fairly minor in scope. I suggest that this so-called editor in chief is head of the department in lieu of an elected officer, and the reigns are given over top am elected officer when this again becomes an officer position
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by thechurchofsatan »

I must say, I quite like this current version of it. I was starting to think we wouldn't be able to find something we can agree on but this is giving me hope.

And I do agree with Spartan with regards to an elected officer.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Cove »

I respectively disagree. The whole point of this discussion is whether we want a Media Officer, and it's unnecessary bureaucracy to have both a Media Officer and an EIC, in my personal opinion. Having an EIC alone would be much better in that it would give the delegate increased flexibility with their officers. I think of it this way - we always need a Foreign Officer, we need a Culture Officer, we need an Outreach Officer - the bone of contention is whether we should have a WA Officer or not, or whether it should continue being a deputy of another department. The increased activity within the WA, in my opinion, speaks for itself.

Having an EIC would give the delegate more flexibility within their officers to make sure that all the bases are covered. I think the next issue is the level of independence or oversight that we as the assembly should have on it, I've seen arguments on both sides saying they want the assembly to have oversight, I've seen others saying they shouldn't. Perhaps, in the interest of maintaining independence, maybe the Assembly shouldn't unilaterally remove the EIC.

To conclude, I do like the proposal, and I'm glad we're making progress on the debate, but I think we need to look at the level of independence we want for the EIC, which is either total independence, limited, or simply staying as we are.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Gorundu »

The Grim Reaper wrote:
18 Apr 2020, 18:24
Frankly I'd prefer a majority vote too but I don't particularly care at this juncture. I'm happy with whichever is more likely to get passed. But I have gone ahead to define it specifically as a two-thirds majority, rather than just a "supermajority", for now.
I don't think changing it to a 2/3 majority makes it any more likely to pass, insofar as the only person who I can see changing their vote based on this would be CoS. A simple majority is the more sensible solution, because I don't see why the Editor-in-Chief is a position that should be afforded special protection against removal by the will of the Assembly. There is no existing position that requires a 2/3 majority for removal, as challenges are all decided on a simple majority basis.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by thechurchofsatan »

An_Dr_Ew wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 05:22
I don't think changing it to a 2/3 majority makes it any more likely to pass, insofar as the only person who I can see changing their vote based on this would be CoS. A simple majority is the more sensible solution, because I don't see why the Editor-in-Chief is a position that should be afforded special protection against removal by the will of the Assembly. There is no existing position that requires a 2/3 majority for removal, as challenges are all decided on a simple majority basis.
None of the other departments have to worry about being leveraged because the content of their work might have been less than ideal at any point in time. A higher threshold is reassuring that it won't be quite so easy to force TRT to retract an article because someone doesn't like it. Among all of the departments, Media is alone in that regard.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Gorundu »

thechurchofsatan wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 05:39
An_Dr_Ew wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 05:22
I don't think changing it to a 2/3 majority makes it any more likely to pass, insofar as the only person who I can see changing their vote based on this would be CoS. A simple majority is the more sensible solution, because I don't see why the Editor-in-Chief is a position that should be afforded special protection against removal by the will of the Assembly. There is no existing position that requires a 2/3 majority for removal, as challenges are all decided on a simple majority basis.
None of the other departments have to worry about being leveraged because the content of their work might have been less than ideal at any point in time. A higher threshold is reassuring that it won't be quite so easy to force TRT to retract an article because someone doesn't like it. Among all of the departments, Media is alone in that regard.
If someone doesn't like an article that TRT publishes, they have to get a majority of active citizens to agree with them to force TRT's hand. In the present conditions, that's impossible without including a sizeable chunk of TRT staff. So if it does happen, then there's probably a good reason for it. You always make it sound like it's TRT vs. the Assembly, when in reality TRT staff makes up a sizeable portion of active citizens.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by thechurchofsatan »

An_Dr_Ew wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 05:47
If someone doesn't like an article that TRT publishes, they have to get a majority of active citizens to agree with them to force TRT's hand. In the present conditions, that's impossible without including a sizeable chunk of TRT staff. So if it does happen, then there's probably a good reason for it. You always make it sound like it's TRT vs. the Assembly, when in reality TRT staff makes up a sizeable portion of active citizens.
You'd be surprised how persuasive one person can be if they're determined enough. Such people have proven to be quite destructive when they want to be. I've had a semi-recent experience with such a person and they proved unbelievably manipulative. A higher threshold helps deter such intentions.
-----------------
With regards to the Media Officer/Editor-in-Chief thing, to those opposed to having both I ask that you consider the following:

Let's say (hypothetically) that the WA office doesn't really take off. We've had a WA office in the past and it tapered off eventually as well. With this legislation (not integrating the Media Officer) the executive wouldn't be able to go back to the Media Office unless it started a new publication because TRT would be independent from the executive. What then? Jimmy a new office into the executive and hope for the best?

By having the Editor-in-Chief as a backup leader, the executive can always go back to having a Media Office and continue operating with TRT. Everybody wins.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Guy »

So the EiC is appointed by the Delegate, and they hold that office indefinitely until the Assembly removes them by two-thirds majority vote? Or a majority of TRT staff can replace them?

This is just so schizophrenic in the interests of compromise it makes no sense.

Either TRT (and the EiC) is ultimately answerable to the Executive, to the Assembly or to TRT staff. This hybrid solution gives even less clarity.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Deadeye Jack »

Guy wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 12:01
So the EiC is appointed by the Delegate, and they hold that office indefinitely until the Assembly removes them by two-thirds majority vote? Or a majority of TRT staff can replace them?

This is just so schizophrenic in the interests of compromise it makes no sense.

Either TRT (and the EiC) is ultimately answerable to the Executive, to the Assembly or to TRT staff. This hybrid solution gives even less clarity.
You've misread it. Essentially this bill says that TRT staff select an EiC. TRT Staff can challenge that EiC at any time like it was an Officer position. If for some reason the EiC resigns or is removed, the Delegate can appoint an acting EiC until a new one is elected. You may, however, still not like that setup. Ultimately, the Assembly and the Executive have an infinitesimal say in who is EiC under this proposal, especially with the two-thirds majority to recall.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Guy »

Deadeye Jack wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 13:41
Guy wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 12:01
So the EiC is appointed by the Delegate, and they hold that office indefinitely until the Assembly removes them by two-thirds majority vote? Or a majority of TRT staff can replace them?

This is just so schizophrenic in the interests of compromise it makes no sense.

Either TRT (and the EiC) is ultimately answerable to the Executive, to the Assembly or to TRT staff. This hybrid solution gives even less clarity.
You've misread it. Essentially this bill says that TRT staff select an EiC. TRT Staff can challenge that EiC at any time like it was an Officer position. If for some reason the EiC resigns or is removed, the Delegate can appoint an acting EiC until a new one is elected. You may, however, still not like that setup. Ultimately, the Assembly and the Executive have an infinitesimal say in who is EiC under this proposal, especially with the two-thirds majority to recall.
It says “The Delegate of The Rejected Realms must appoint an Editor-in-Chief when the position is vacant.”

A vacancy would exist at the starting point, as well as any time a resignation occurs. So I think my characterisation of an initial Delegate appointment, but with TRT staff essentially being able to replace at any time, is accurate.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by thechurchofsatan »

Guy wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 15:22
It says “The Delegate of The Rejected Realms must appoint an Editor-in-Chief when the position is vacant.”

A vacancy would exist at the starting point, as well as any time a resignation occurs. So I think my characterisation of an initial Delegate appointment, but with TRT staff essentially being able to replace at any time, is accurate.
You're still misreading it. The Assembly confirms every single Editor-in-Chief (after the initial one from when this is passed).
Deadeye Jack wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 13:41
You've misread it. Essentially this bill says that TRT staff select an EiC. TRT Staff can challenge that EiC at any time like it was an Officer position. If for some reason the EiC resigns or is removed, the Delegate can appoint an acting EiC until a new one is elected. You may, however, still not like that setup. Ultimately, the Assembly and the Executive have an infinitesimal say in who is EiC under this proposal, especially with the two-thirds majority to recall.
The Assembly confirms every single Editor-in-Chief. That's not infinitesimal. It's almost exactly the same level of involvement the Assembly has in electing an officer.

All this legislation needs is one small clause that says the Media Officer (when there is one) is the head of TRRMC and it's the best possible balance between compromise, accountability, Assembly involvement/oversight and government involvement/oversight.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Deadeye Jack »

thechurchofsatan wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 19:08
Deadeye Jack wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 13:41
You've misread it. Essentially this bill says that TRT staff select an EiC. TRT Staff can challenge that EiC at any time like it was an Officer position. If for some reason the EiC resigns or is removed, the Delegate can appoint an acting EiC until a new one is elected. You may, however, still not like that setup. Ultimately, the Assembly and the Executive have an infinitesimal say in who is EiC under this proposal, especially with the two-thirds majority to recall.
The Assembly confirms every single Editor-in-Chief. That's not infinitesimal. It's almost exactly the same level of involvement the Assembly has in electing an officer.

All this legislation needs is one small clause that says the Media Officer (when there is one) is the head of TRRMC and it's the best possible balance between compromise, accountability, Assembly involvement/oversight and government involvement/oversight.
The proposal actually doesn't explicitly provide for a confirmation vote. Like CitCo has a specific provision for it. While under this bill the Assembly would have the power to recall the EiC, the EiC does not need to face an Assembly vote before taking power. And I still don't like the two-thirds threshold. I couldn't vote for this through gritted teeth without it just being the simple majority. Really though my main gripe is with how the EiC is chosen. My main preference would have been that the Assembly votes on whoever from the TRT staff wants to be EiC.

I'm also still confused why we're trying to have a Media Officer along side of EiC. I don't see any point and really that would just allow future Delegates to maintain absolute control over TRT by expanding an Officer's role to include Media. It contradicts the whole point of of trying to give TRT more freedom from the executive if that's something you want.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by thechurchofsatan »

Jack and I have gone over this and we've come up with what we believe is a better version of the proposal.
Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

This Act constitutes The Rejected Realms Media Corporation as an autonomous organization within the jurisdiction of the government of The Rejected Realms.

1. The Rejected Realms Media Corporation is the organization constituted by The Rejected Realms for the purpose of exercising editorial independence.
2. The Rejected Realms Media Corporation is permitted to utilize the platforms of The Rejected Realms to carry out its operations.
3. The Editor-in-Chief is the head of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation.
4. The Editor-in-Chief must be a citizen of The Rejected Realms.
5. The Editor-in-Chief is responsible for maintaining The Rejected Realms Media Corporation's editorial independence and the authoritative record of Members of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation, in regards to which they may add or remove any current Citizen with their consent, or unilaterally remove any non-Citizen.
6. The Delegate of The Rejected Realms must appoint an Editor-in-Chief when the position is vacant.
7. The position of Editor-in-Chief is voted on by the Assembly of The Rejected Realms in the same manner prescribed for an Officer of the Rejected Realms.
A. The Editor-in-Chief must be a Staff member of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation at the time the election is initiated.
B. Members of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation may challenge the Editor-in-Chief in the manner prescribed for an Officer of the Rejected Realms.
8. The Assembly of The Rejected Realms may recall the Editor-in-Chief by a two-thirds majority vote.
9. Publications by The Rejected Realms Media Corporation credited to someone who is not a citizen of The Rejected Realms at time of publication must have a credit that indicates they are a Guest of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation.
The first thing we believe should be considered is whether or not sections 6 and 8 are necessary given the addition of the electoral process in the Assembly.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Bormiar »

I agree with this, but why 2/3rds instead of simple majority?
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by thechurchofsatan »

Bormiar wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 22:58
I agree with this, but why 2/3rds instead of simple majority?
There's still the matter of possible censorship as a reaction rather than something considered objectively. But again we ought to consider whether that section is even necessary now.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Spartan Termopylae »

Because apparently media is special and deserves top stand apart from everything else.

Sorry, slightly bitchy, we all know what I think on all this
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Deadeye Jack »

As I said previously I do think the Assembly having the ability to elect a member of the TRRMC Staff as EiC is a fair compromise.

As far as the question posed in CoS's last post personally I can't really think of any cases where we would need provision 6 or provision 8 to be included in the Bill anymore. Are there really scenarios where the Assembly needs to Recall the EiC when it has the power to elect the EiC and any Staff member can challenge for the position? And doesn't the Delegate appointing an EiC when the spot is vacant go against the whole Assembly elects things. Even if the appointment is supposed to be temporary why can't we wait a few days to have a new EiC elected to carry on normal business? If we're talking about a situation where absolutely no TRRMC staff member wants to be EiC even nominally then we're in even bigger trouble with respect to Media.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by thechurchofsatan »

Spartan Termopylae wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 23:07
Because apparently media is special and deserves top stand apart from everything else.

Sorry, slightly bitchy, we all know what I think on all this
Personally I still want the Editor-in-Chief to serve as a backup leader for when there isn't a media officer. I don't want to inconvenience the executive government. But if Jack's okay with it then I can get behind it.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Constituting Act of The Rejected Realms Media Corporation

Post by Gorundu »

Deadeye Jack wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 23:09
As I said previously I do think the Assembly having the ability to elect a member of the TRRMC Staff as EiC is a fair compromise.

As far as the question posed in CoS's last post personally I can't really think of any cases where we would need provision 6 or provision 8 to be included in the Bill anymore. Are there really scenarios where the Assembly needs to Recall the EiC when it has the power to elect the EiC and any Staff member can challenge for the position? And doesn't the Delegate appointing an EiC when the spot is vacant go against the whole Assembly elects things. Even if the appointment is supposed to be temporary why can't we wait a few days to have a new EiC elected to carry on normal business? If we're talking about a situation where absolutely no TRRMC staff member wants to be EiC even nominally then we're in even bigger trouble with respect to Media.
I thought you came up with this version together...

Anyway, I agree with what you said here. Challenges would make recalls redundant. But I think the Delegate appointing a temporary EiC or taking up the duties themselves is fine. See 6G in my proposal.
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